Vol Input control

[Mark66250]

Completely aggravated.
I see no way to control the input vol going into Ardour.

I am using a guitar going into an M-Audio Air 192/4 interface, which connects obviously into the PC. From there, into Guitarix, through Jack and into Ardour.

Just so you don’t ask me, I am using an HP with 12 gigs of memory and a Gen 12 i5 processor. All my gear is new. I am running on Debian 11 (Bullseye).

I get either, a completely blown up input signal, (Clip City), or after hours of fucking around with both the M-Audio device and Guitarix, a completely tamed down almost unprocessed plasticy sounding recorded signal, that is still visually very large in Ardour, but less clipping.

I tried running the guitar through a small mixer to control the sound input before going into the M-Audio interface, but almost no sound.

WTF.

I have been using Linux since 2005.
I set up a Linux recording rig on Ubuntu Studio in 2010. It was broken right “Out of the Box”, and did not work until I inserted a code patch I found in the forums.
Spent 2 months on a recording, not happy with the final result, and shit canned the whole system. Back to Windows, which I HATE.

Free and a boatload of aggravation vs Throw money at it and have it work.
I hate proprietary software, and wish this Linux stuff was just a little more intuitive.

Is there a volume input adjustment somewhere on Ardour?
I don’t see one.
Is it hidden?
If so…
Why?
Why would it be hidden?

If there is no input vol control, then why not?
WTF…

I was going to spend the $1000. and get another computer just for Linux recording, but wanted to work the bugs out now before dropping a grand.

Bullshit like this is what really pisses me off with Linux.
They make a fucking research project out of a simple issue.

What is everybody else doing to control the input signal into Ardour, without cutting the amp sim processing from Guitarix?

WTF…

I would like to be able to hear the processed guitar sound after Guitarix, and be able to have control over the PROCESSED GUITARIX SIGNAL going into Ardour.

I am guessing this is a connection issue with Jack.
It’s been 2 weeks, and I have run out of patience.

Mark.

[paul (Paul Davis)]

1. if you’re usign ALSA, then alsamixer is the basic, always-there hardware mixer control for your hardware. Your hardware may or may not have the control that you want, depending on what it is.

2. Unless it’s a USB device, in which case it generally will have no exposed controls in alsamixer because that’s how USB audio works (on other platforms, you need a dedicated hardware control utility to manage them). There are some USB devices that have equivalent support on Linux (notably many Presonus devices). There are also a few devices that run a web server allowing them to be configured from any browser, but this did not take off the way I had hoped it would (some MOTU devices do this).

3. Ardour also has an input trim adjustment at the top of every audio mixer strip. However, useful as this is, it is post-hardware, entirely digital and so not equivalent to an analog gain control.

Your issue has nothing to do with JACK (or Ardour). If you’re really out of patience with device manufacturers that do not support Linux, you can run Ardour (or a number of other fine DAWs) on Windows and macOS.

[paul (Paul Davis)]

Also, all or almost all of the Guitarix processing is available as plugins, which if you’re working with Ardour is almost certainly more convenient than using JACK and a separate Guitarix process, though YMMV.

[ccaudle (Chris)]

@Mark66250

I get either, a completely blown up input signal, (Clip City), or after hours of fucking around with both the M-Audio device and Guitarix,

This is basic gain staging. The M-Audio device doesn’t have very good meters, it looks like the metering jumps from -20 dBFS to -6 dBFS, which isn’t really enough resolution to see what is going on.
Turn up your guitar volume all the way, grab some big chord that hits all 6 strings, strum as hard as you usually would on a loud section, and turn up the gain until the -6dB light just flickers on when you hit the chord.
If you want to see what is going on a little better get jkmeter installed (or some similar JACK metering app) and connect the source port of the audio interface (which will be connected to Guitarix) to the jkmeter input port.
That should take about a minute, not hours, and then your hardware level is set. You may have to adjust the level if you switch from single coil to humbucker, switch guitars, whatever, same as you might have to adjust the volume on an amp if you switch something, but that should get you in the ballpark.

The specifics after that will depend on what Guitarix models you are using, you will have to understand the gain structure of the amp model, same as you should try to understand the gain structure of a real amp you are using if you want to get the best tone.
You can run multiple instances of jkmeter if you want to check levels at various points, output of Guitarix going into the Ardour track input being the next obvious point to verify. You can also set the Ardour meters to monitor input level, so having a second instance of jkmeter at that point is kind of redundant, but might be handy if you have the Ardour meters set later in the channel and don’t want to switch them back and forth.

@Mark66250

I tried running the guitar through a small mixer to control the sound input

Did the mixer have an instrument input?
You are using the input on your interface with the guitar silhouette, right? An instrument input will typically have a 1M Ohm input impedance, and have some amount of gain available (your interface has 24dB of gain available on the instrument input). A line input would typically have around 10k Ohm input impedance, so on the order of 100 times lower than optimal for a guitar. If you plugged your guitar into a line input on the mixer it is not surprising that it sounded bad.

@Mark66250

Is there a volume input adjustment somewhere on Ardour?

Yes, at the top of every track.

@Mark66250

Is it hidden?

No, but it is somewhat small.
If you look at the snapshot of a channel strip on this page of the manual:
Audio mixer strip page in manual
the input trim is not labeled, but it is the small knob just to the right of the circled 3 label.

@Mark66250

Bullshit like this is what really pisses me off with Linux.

This is not linux specific, this is just basic audio setup knowledge. You would hit the same issues if you were using ProTools on Windows.

@Mark66250

I would like to be able to hear the processed guitar sound after Guitarix

You said you were using JACK, if you want to listen directly to the Guitarix output then connect it to your output hardware in the JACK graph. That doesn’t seem super useful, but I guess it would help you convince yourself that you are really hearing what is going into Ardour. I suppose it could also help pinpoint if you managed to get something unusual configured in your Ardour setup with regards to routing tracks to the output bus, or have some plugin instantiated that is doing something you did not expect.

@Mark66250

I am guessing this is a connection issue with Jack.

Hard to tell since you have provided zero information about your JACK, Guitarix, or Ardour configuration.
I get that you are frustrated, but to me this sounds like a lack of basic understanding of audio signal flow, and you have not provided any useful information to determine where you are going wrong.

I would suggest starting with my recommendations above, and see how far that gets you.
As Paul suggests you could also just use the Ardour ALSA backend, go straight into Ardour with the clean guitar signal and use Guitarix plugins for the tone you want. Everything about making sure to use the instrument input instead of the line input and setting up the level appropriately still applies, but you just use plugins inside Ardour to shape the guitar tone rather than using stand alone Guitarix app and using JACK to route between apps.

[ardourwlk (M Aaronwalker)]

@Mark66250

What is everybody else doing to control the input signal into Ardour, without cutting the amp sim processing from Guitarix?

I have a focusrite 2i2 1st gen, not great, but works good for what I do. I run my (passive) instrument into a countryman 85, then into the 2i2, line level. I turn up the gain on the 2i2, and then bang on the instrument until it clips (the light turns red), and turn it down a little, and repeat until it doesn’t turn red anymore. Then in qjackctl, i have that input routed to guitarix, and then into an Ardour track. This is what I did under Ubuntu Studio, and now under AVLinux.

So, seriously, you need to break down your problems. You can remove Ardour from the chain. Do you see any levels in guitarix? You should see some meter bars there.

Basically forget about Ardour for now, until you get the upstream things working well.

[Mark66250]

Thanks Paul. Yes it’s using ALSA. I just downloaded the ALSA mixer GUI, which I did not have before. It’s really the same as the vol control in the upper task bar in XFCE. The M-Audio is a USB device, but I tried it anyway with no luck.
I have seen the input trim button at the top of the strip, but it appears to be nonfunctional. It does not turn either way. It’s essentially dead. It was one of the first things I tried.

I have a recording rig set up on Windows 10 using Cubase 10 and Line 6 amp sims on another computer. It works fine, and this is what I have been using for years. Before this, it was Windows 7 and Cubase 5.

I have long wanted to migrate away from proprietary software.
And I like the idea of Open Source software, as well as the challenges presented.
I was at my wits end yesterday. (HELP!!) LOL!
Quite different than Cubase. Yes and no. As I mentioned, I used it about 13 years ago for 2 months, but gave up on it. But I was using an external hardware device for amp sims.

I think this will be a fine system if I can get the inputs under control.
I have been trying to input as I do in Cubase. Interface/PodFarm or Gearbox/Cubase.
I will investigate using the plugins instead of the current configuration.

I could also buy another interface. The M-Audio was advertised (in part) as being Linux Compatible. But we find, not Linux Friendly.

But thank you Paul for your ideas.

[ccaudle (Chris)]

@Mark66250

Yes it’s using ALSA

In that context Paul meant using the Ardour ALSA backend rather than the JACK backend. Those are two mutually exclusive ways to configure Ardour access to the audio hardware. Using JACK you have more routing flexibility and can route audio between applications, but it is more complex to setup. Using the ALSA backend much of the complexity is eliminated, but Ardour opens the audio device for exclusive access, meaning no other applications can record or play audio while the Ardour ALSA backend is running, and you have to do all processing in Ardour plugins, no routing between separate applications.

@Mark66250

input trim button at the top of the strip, but it appears to be nonfunctional

It is always functional. How did you attempt to change the value? Either left click, then drag right or left, or left click to expose then middle scroll wheel will change the values.
It is somewhat limited range, you should optimize your analog levels first before adjusting trim.

@Mark66250

I could also buy another interface. The M-Audio was advertised (in part) as being Linux Compatible. But we find, not Linux Friendly.

That style of interface is optimal for use with Linux, it has knobs to control all the hardware settings. The worst kind are interfaces which require a proprietary software application to configure, that typically means Windows only, or Windows and Mac only, and you are stuck if you have Linux.

I’m not sure what exactly you mean by “not Linux Friendly,” your description so far seems to indicate that the interface works perfectly fine with no configuration needed, so I’m not sure how much more “friendly” it could be. You do need to understand basic gain staging and adjust the input gain appropriately, but that is true of any audio interface, it has nothing to do with operating systems.

[Mark66250]

Hi Chris, thank you for your reply.
The input gain control knob at the top of the meter you are referencing on the M-Audio, does not appear to affect the signal going in at all.

Sorry, new users are only allowed to post one image per post.
Will post the rest below.

If you look at “Guitar 4”, I recorded first with the Gain knob at 10, then at 5, then close to 0. To my ears, it sounds ok, and no difference between all 3 settings during this run.
But you know, you play a lot and your ears get kinda desensitized, so I don’t always rely on them, because you will hear it later on.

I will look at jkmeter, I have that already. Thank you.
Yes, I understand inputs fluctuate. Not the issue. I have no way to control the inputs.
As Paul above mentioned, there is an input control knob at the top of each channel strip.
Thats the first thing I tried. That control knob simply does not work. I cannot move it at all.

" I tried running the guitar through a small mixer to control the sound input

*Did the mixer have an instrument input?"

Yes, it has several 1/4 inputs that I used years ago without issue.

“You are using the input on your interface with the guitar silhouette, right?”

Yes, the M-Audio 192/4 only has 1 1/4 inch instrument input for direct input. The other is a mic type input. When I tried the mixer, I connected the mixer 1/4 inch output to the 1/4 inch input (Guitar Silhouette) on the M-Audio interface.

" > Is there a volume input adjustment somewhere on Ardour?

Yes, at the top of every track.

Is it hidden?

No, but it is somewhat small."

Again, this little black knob is not functional, unless it needs to be activated first or something. I do not know.

“You said you were using JACK, if you want to listen directly to the Guitarix output then connect it to your output hardware in the JACK graph.”

I can hear Guitarix just fine through the M-Audio. It sounds great as I record.
I can get the vols down with the sliders in each track.
What is throwing me is the visual in each track showing me an overblown signal.
This is not normally what I see when using Cubase, and if it is, I turn it down.

As I mentioned yesterday, when I try to turn it down, I get a really bad sound, and the visual in the track looks almost as bad, with all the clipping.

Here is my jack routing:

And…I only use the 1/4 input with the guitar over it. It is all I have ever used.

Thank you Chris. I will examine going straight into Ardour, and using the Guitarix presets there for sound. Not something I had tried. As I said, I was using this setup, the same way I was using Cubase on Windows. It should work fine.

[Mark66250]

It appears you have arrived at my initial question.
I have no way I can see to adjust the input gain.
That is my problem right there.

[Mark66250]

M-Audio Output control.
Look at guitar 4. I first had the M-Audio output adjustment knob on 10, then 5, then close to 0. You can see the breaks in the track as I did the adjustments.
it seems to make no difference.
10 to 0 Left to right Guitar 4.

[Mark66250]

The Input is a no brainer.

[Mark66250]

This signal knob at the top of each channel, appears to be dead.
It’s simply non functional, unless as I said above, it needs to be activated or something first.

[Mark66250]

Guitarix Settings:

[ccaudle (Chris)]

@Mark66250

If you look at “Guitar 4”, I recorded first with the Gain knob at 10, then at 5, then close to 0. …no difference between all 3 settings during this run.

It is a little hard to follow the routing in that view of connections from QJackCtl. Maybe the audio connections window in Ardour would be a little easier to read. Is Guitar 4 connected directly to the capture_2 source, or is the input to Guitar 4 the output of gx_head_fx?

And do you have PulseAudio feeding into the guitar amp simulator as well? What is going on there?

The difference between 1 and 10 on the gain settings should be 24dB for the instrument input, which should be pretty noticeable.
And when you look at the waveforms you can definitely tell that the decay portion is amplified more in the later sections than the first section, so I think that the gain knob is changing the input gain as expected.

What do the meters on the interface indicate? Is the clip indicator lighting up?
If the lowest gain still clips, have you tried just backing down the volume control on the guitar?

You never mentioned what type of guitar you are using, you don’t have active pickups or an onboard preamp by any chance, do you? An onboard preamp would have much higher output than passive pickups, and active pickups would be somewhere in between. Most active pickups are made for playing into a typical guitar pedal or amp input, though, so would not normally have high enough output that an instrument input would clip at lowest gain setting. That is why metering directly from the audio interface will be useful, to double check at the earliest possible point (although the mixer view of Ardour has pretty good meters, you can use that if you make sure the metering point is input and not post-fader).

@Mark66250

That control knob simply does not work. I cannot move it at all.

When you left click the knob, does it pop up a small window showing the current setting (which would start at 0.0)? You tried both of the methods I suggested previouly, either click and hold, then drag left or right, or click, then use the middle scroll wheel?

@Mark66250

Yes, (the mixer) has several 1/4 inputs that I used years ago without issue.

A 1/4" jack is just a size of connector, by instrument input I mean an input with a 500k Ohm or 1M Ohm buffer, as opposed to a line input, which is designed for higher input levels and only around a 10k Ohm input impedance.

The center of the microphone input is a 1/4" line input.

@Mark66250

When I tried the mixer, I connected the mixer 1/4 inch output to the 1/4 inch input (Guitar Silhouette) on the M-Audio interface.

That would typically be a really poor match, the output from a mixer would be line level, and so should be connected to the line level 1/4" input in the center of the XLR connector for channel 1.

@Mark66250

As I mentioned yesterday, when I try to turn it down, I get a really bad sound

What is the antecedent for “it” in that sentence. When you turn “it” down, what are you actually adjusting? Audio interface gain control? You said you haven’t figured out how to adjust channel trim, so channel fader? Master fader?

@Mark66250

I was using this setup, the same way I was using Cubase on Windows.

You used JACK and Guitarix on Windows? That would be uncommon.

@Mark66250

I first had the M-Audio output adjustment knob on 10, then 5, then close to 0. You can see the breaks in the track as I did the adjustments.
it seems to make no difference.

That is not correct at all, and from the appearance I would say you wrote backwards of what you actually did, it is not 10 to 0 left to right, it is 1 to 10 left to right. Look at the shape of the waveform after the initial pluck (which does clip on all three examples). The first section falls away pretty quickly, then has a gentle curve downward in level. The second does not fall nearly as far in level, and the curved section is much higher in level than the first section The third section it doesn’t fall at all for quite a while, then it is almost a straight line down rather than a curved fall off in level.

I would expect that to sound quite bad if you listened to the “clean” guitar signal (which won’t actually be clean when it is clipping that hard).

I would suggest setting up a new session just for checking, only add one track, and don’t connect Guitarix at all. Work on getting a setting that has an actual clean guitar tone, no clipping from the interface. If you have passive pickups, and it still clips with the interface gain at 1, you will have to roll back the guitar volume control to lower the level.
If you have active pickups or an onboard pre-amp (or onboard EQ, that is effectively a pre-amp) then try the line input on channel 1 instead of the instrument input.

Once you have the gain adjusted properly for your clean guitar input, then you can add in Guitarix and get the levels optimized there.

The specs for that interface indicate that the maximum input level for the instrument input is 6 dBu, which is about 1.5V. A typical passive guitar output would have less than 1/10th that level, so I am doubtful that the problem is actually with your interface. The JACK graph was pretty much unreadable, but if that track was actually the output of Guitarix then you have the gain structure of Guitarix off from what it should be. If you are trying to get a really high gain crunchy sound then it might be a simple as turning down the output level control on the amp simulator.

[Mark66250]

Yes, thank you Chris. No, Left clicking and trying to drag the button to move it in any way did not work. But right clicking and using the scroll wheel at the same time moves it. I find this out now. This is what I meant about maybe it needed to be activated, and Linux doing oddball stuff like this when every other control button, you left click and pull.

I bought the M-Audio because I agree as well it is optimal for Linux. I have been using Linux as a daily driver for general computing for 18 years, and I will always use Linux. I’m not trashing it. I just remember the days of “Broken Out Of The Box.” I get it…

I tried running Ardour as a stand alone, without Jack or Guitarix, using plugins.
It got flaky. It stopped opening previous recordings, or they did not appear in the Ardour startup menu. Ardour and Guitarix both stopped opening. I would just get a flicker of the program starting, then…gone. No open. No access to the Guitarix Stand Alone program for even just practice.

I did a Complete Uninstall of everything and reinstall, and it seems to be restored again.
But back to square one.
The recordings sound fine, but the visual in the Ardour Editor, shows a blown up signal.
When using the LV2 plugins, the visual showed a much better signal, no clipping, but I could not hear any processed guitar in real time during recording, just dry sound. And that’s not optimal. But the recorded signal sounded better, but not as good as when I was connecting the Guitarix program to Ardour through Jack.
My ears have been tested several years in a row, and my hearing is in line with my age group. However I have learned not to trust my ears, because playing can desensitize them.
The visual in the Ardour editor shows massive clipping, and this is the concern, even though the recorded material sounds good to my ears.
I would like to get this under control.
So far, nothing works.

But I would like to thank everyone here for all their advise.

[Mark66250]

Mark66250
I was using this setup, the same way I was using Cubase on Windows.

You used JACK and Guitarix on Windows? That would be uncommon."

WTF?
You don’t really want me to respond to that.

I have used Line 6 Gear Box and Pod Farm with Cubase for years.
Easy to control input signals.

" [quote=“Mark66250, post:10, topic:108251”]
I first had the M-Audio output adjustment knob on 10, then 5, then close to 0. You can see the breaks in the track as I did the adjustments.
It seems to make no difference.
[/quote]

That is not correct at all, and from the appearance I would say you wrote backwards of what you actually did, it is not 10 to 0 left to right, it is 1 to 10 left to right."

Perhaps I did write it backwards. Perhaps I turned the control right to left. I went the full range of that control, which shows it was not that control.

I am still listening…
I am fascinated with psychology, if you have no clue how to ultimately solve the problem, it’s ok to say so. I am good with it.
When I start to see irreverent nitpicking, it tells me something.
I am not a master of this software, and it is why I was asking on this forum.

"Look at the shape of the waveform after the initial pluck (which does clip on all three examples).

The first section falls away pretty quickly, then has a gentle curve downward in level. The second does not fall nearly as far in level, and the curved section is much higher in level than the first section The third section it doesn’t fall at all for quite a while, then it is almost a straight line down rather than a curved fall off in level.

I would expect that to sound quite bad if you listened to the “clean” guitar signal (which won’t actually be clean when it is clipping that hard).

I would suggest setting up a new session just for checking, only add one track, and don’t connect Guitarix at all. Work on getting a setting that has an actual clean guitar tone, no clipping from the interface."

Yes, this is a helpful approach. Thank you.
I am just baffled, as I never had any problems like this with any other DAW on any other platform I ever used. I don’t know why this system is so finicky.

“If you have passive pickups, and it still clips with the interface gain at 1, you will have to roll back the guitar volume control to lower the level.”

No, not using the guitar vol knob to get the DAW under control. Thats bullshit. Guitar vol knob, is essentially a tone control.

"If you have active pickups or an onboard pre-amp (or onboard EQ, that is effectively a pre-amp) then try the line input on channel 1 instead of the instrument input.

No onboard anything. Just a Telecaster, Les Paul and Strat, going straight in to interface.

“Once you have the gain adjusted properly for your clean guitar input, then you can add in Guitarix and get the levels optimized there.”

I do agree with this approach, and I will try it, it makes sense.
I am trying for a higher gain, lower distortion sound. But I have run the gamut with all the controls, from Off to Full On, every control on everything, and the signal is still showing blown up in the editor. I still get this visual, with the gains turned way down.
My gut tells me none of this should be this finicky. That there is one root source of this problem, and I think it is the input signal from the M-Audio that needs to be tamed down. I think the rest is an attempt to tame it after the fact.

But I will try anyway, what you mentioned above, get the dry signal tamed, if that is possible, then layer on the processing. This seems logical.

The specs for that interface indicate that the maximum input level for the instrument input is 6 dBu, which is about 1.5V. A typical passive guitar output would have less than 1/10th that level, so I am doubtful that the problem is actually with your interface. The JACK graph was pretty much unreadable,"

LOL! Yeah, someone complained they had no idea how I was connected, so I put that up. You’re welcome.

“but if that track was actually the output of Guitarix then you have the gain structure of Guitarix off from what it should be.”

LOL! Yeah, you think?
With all gains almost off, I still get that.

If you are trying to get a really high gain crunchy sound then it might be a simple as turning down the output level control on the amp simulator."

LOL! Yeah, you know, That was actually the very first control I reached for, weeks ago.
I actually tried moving every single control knob, on everything, just to see what affect it had, BEFORE I even thought of asking on a forum.
The brick wall was what brought me here.

I think it boils down to this, this is either a super finicky system, (Doubtful).
Interface is not right. I got the M-Audio Brand new for $73.00
Or … CODE, is fucked.
Ardour and Guitarix both stopped working after I downloaded more LV2 and VST programs from the Debian Repository.

[Mark66250]

And yes, now back to both Guitarix and Ardour not launching.
These are broken programs.

It worked an hour ago. I closed it, posted here, attempted to reopen it, but it failed to launch.

So when I say, “Fuckin Linux…” this is the shit I mean.

So the question becomes, do I drop a grand on a new dedicated computer and go with AV Linux MX, and hope all is well after installation?
I hear great things about AV Linux MX.

I was hoping to work through any issues on my Deb system before wasting money.
Doesn’t seem possible with programs that won’t launch.
And when they do launch, uncontrollable gain.

My current hardware is an HP with an Intel Gen 12, i5, 12 gigs of ram, running Debian 11. My interface is an M-Audio Air 192/4, and my guitars are a Gibson Les Paul, Standard, Fender Telecaster American Professional, and a custom FrankenStrat I built.
I have only used the Tele for testing this Linux system.
Ardour 6.5
This should be an ideal set up.

I think this is a code problem, due to the sudden No Launch issue occurring once again, after the reinstall and successful launch an hour ago.

I think there is an unrecognized code conflict.

[brummer]

So you are using a debian based system and using Ardour from the debian repository?
If so, you could use guitarix.vst, which is a vst3 wrapper for the complete guitarix engine. That will allow you to run it as a plugin inside Ardour instead as a input.
https://github.com/brummer10/guitarix.vst/releases/download/Latest/Guitarix.vst3.zip
This is a pre-build binary package, unpack it and copy the content to ~/.vst3
Be aware that this version didn’t work when you use a official Ardour build.

[cooltehno]

That’s so crazy cool!!
Thank you very much!

But I have some problem with the installed plugin:

[ERROR]: Could not load VST3 plugin '/usr/lib/vst3/Guitarix.vst3/Contents/x86_64-linux/Guitarix.so': libboost_iostreams.so.1.71.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
Cannot load VST3 module: '/usr/lib/vst3/Guitarix.vst3/Contents/x86_64-linux/Guitarix.so'

My Ubuntu 22.04.1, Ardour 7.2.182

[brummer]

Just install
libboost_iostreams
from your package manager to resolve that.