Trouble with a couple of plugins - ignoring invalid LV2 plugins

Installation & Configuration Linux
#12

It may not seem to be the best idea for a (commercial) developer of linux applications not to recommend linux as the obvious choice, but I think in order for it have any chance of being the obvious choice, sometimes its necessary to step back and consider whether it actually is the best fit in a given situation (and if not, why not, and therefore how it could be improved). I was just giving an honest appraisal of the choices that are available for anyone wanting to use a PC for audio.

@Boesmann:

Why don’t you make the switch if it is such an advisable choice?
I use linux, Mac and Windows PCs - professionally for product development - and as a user. My preference is linux, but these are all just different ways to get a particular job done, and you have to choose which one works best. I prefer linux, but as a user and a developer, I’m also not going to sacrifice usablility just for some masochistic allegiance to one operating system.
My software already is available on other platforms, (where, it generally gets significantly more interest than it does on linux…) and I have also been a contributor to some ‘big name’ products from other pro-audio companies.
I remain committed to linux audio development, but these are going to be challenging times in which to make the necessary progress.
(For the record, I wasn’t advising users to buy any particular OS, but it remains a fact that most PCs come with one particular OS pre-installed, and in that case, for anyone on a limited budget (GPL politics aside) that can be a very cost effective way to make music - which is kind of what its all about - or should be. Its not completely cost-free to set up a Windows based DAW in this way, but there’s little point in having something that is cost free, if it - or its components - don’t do what you need… Which is somewhere near where this all started)

@DavePhillips: I think you summed it up more eloquently than I did :slight_smile:

#13

@Boesman

That is just BS plain and simple. Many of the design decisions for Ardour these days come straight from consulting with users that have no experience in programming. Sorry but not everyone is out to get you as a user, if they were open source software probably wouldn’t exist.

The point of both dp (who last I checked was just a user as well, not a programmer) and linuxdsp, is that for some people Linux is not the best option available, and in fact may be the worst for some workflows. It is improving but it is not the best option for everyone.

And many things don’t “just work” with Linux audio, and for new users especially. I can’t tell you how many times we have to explain how to configure a system for real time preemption for jack to people. Yes some distros get this right, but many do not, and most of the ones people go to first because they have heard the name elsewhere when considering to switch to Linux, don’t. Many audio interfaces do not work in Linux due to lack of vendor supported drivers. And for many audio engineers, there aren’t always comparable plugins. Restoration plugins are the biggest issue for me personally right now, but those aren’t the only ones either.

As I said all of this is getting better, but it isn’t all there yet. And for some people Linux is not the best choice. This has nothing to do with programmers complaining, it is a simple fact of life.

Now all that being said Linux can be a great and viable choice for many people, if they start with an audio oriented distro, and meet the audio hardware requirements to run thei interface on Linux, and there are sufficient plugins for their particular workflow. This could cover a lot of people these days, just not everyone and far less than just the ‘full blown professional’ not being able to work, which by the way, I am likely what you would consider a full blown professional and have used Linux for my professional work for years. It happens that I was able to get it to work in my particular workflow years ago, but I also know more than your average newcomer about Linux system administration and yes I do some programming on occasion. My point being that things in that area aren’t really cut and dried either.

#14

just a quick update.

I managed to get the EQ10Q plugin to work. Im glad i did its become pretty usefull even if im only using a couple of the bands out of the 10 that it offers.

I removed all traces of the EQ10Q plugin and installed the latest version from the eq10q website.

Now it works , ardour doesnt crash so im guessing the Dev has sorted that issue.

There is still some stability issues, i inserted the stereo plugin on a mono track, no problems.

Inserted the stereo plugin on another plugin and on playback that track plus the reverbs it was sending to went bizerk with distorion track levels maxing out :confused:

using the mono version fixed that odd quirk.

anyway its working, i think that i may have possibly had 2 versions on the system so he old one was causing problems even though the new one was installed aswell.

#15
My software already is available on other platforms, (where, it generally gets significantly more interest than it does on linux..)

Sorry to be off topic but i’m curious about that. Do you really sell much more for Windows OS than for Linux ? How much more ?

Because looking at Audiofanzine (THE huge french speaking website about music and audio) forums about your products, i don’t see any special interest. Mostly disdain i would say, just another one making plugins, there are already billions of plugins (and as you mentionned free ones that are quite good) on Windows. Maybe you can see by yourself using an automatic translator, it’s here : http://fr.audiofanzine.com/overtone-dsp/forums/
Not even one of the 400000 registered users of this website wrote a review of your products.

In contrast i had the feeling that your “status” in the Linux audio world was much better as you’re the only one to sell professional quality plugins. And i guess that any Linux audio user know it.

#16

@youki

There is a difference between respect and interest or sales. Just because we respect the work of LinuxDSP in a different way than other platforms, doesn’t mean he gets nearly as many sales or interest as he does from those platforms, if for no other reason than simply the number of users. The proportion of users can be much lower on those platforms and still make more sales than you will on Linux.

By the way, you certainly won’t see LinuxDSP listed as LinuxDSP when talking about the other platforms, he sells under a different brand for at least OS X, if not Windows as well.

      Seablade
#17

So let’s say that it’s the point of my question, what means exactly the sentence “where, it generally gets significantly more interest than it does on linux”. Sorry i’m not a native english speaker, maybe i missed something.

By the way, you certainly won't see LinuxDSP listed as LinuxDSP when talking about the other platforms, he sells under a different brand for at least OS X, if not Windows as well.

Maybe still due to this difference of language again i don’t understand your point here. I perfectly know that it’s OvertoneDSP for Windows and Mac, the link i provided is about this label, not the LinuxDSP one. But as far as i know, the same algorithms are used for the plugins on the three OS, aren’t they ?
To be clear, i mean the FC-70 on Linux provide the same sound than on Windows or Mac, whatever the company name used. So what does it change in my questions ?

#18

I generally measure the interest in a product by the number of downloads and / or sales rather than from comments (or the lack of them) on forums.

#19

Ok, thanks, it’s short but i think that answer my question. I had indeed a wrong interpretation of the situation. It leads me to another question : as it seems that Windows and Mac are easier for you to work with, and with a much better financial result, are you going to still release your future plugins on Linux (that if i understood well what i read from you seems to be a pain is the ass, sorry if i’m rude, i didn’t find a better word) ?

#20

The existing linux plugins will still be supported (for as long as the underlying linux audio ‘ecosystem’ provides a viable platform for that to be possible) however, as to whether or not new products will be available on all platforms depends on the suitability of each product (supporting a diverse range of operating systems spreads / minimizes risk at the expense of more development time, but it has also become apparent that some products which are popular with users on Windows / Mac - and I’m not specifically refering only to my own work - don’t alsways translate successfully to the linux audio userbase).

#21

Is it too much if i ask you what are the plugins that sell well or not on Linux ?

#22

I’m not going to discuss sales of specific products, and I don’t think this thread / forum would be an appropriate place for such a discussion but it is apparent that some products do better on some platforms than others, for whatever reason that may be.

#23

Well, thanks for your answers, even if transparency seems to be sometimes a problem for you.

I feel disapointed, it looks like you’re slowly leaving Linux anyway, not profitable enough. I bought almost all of your plugins, even when not really needed, thinking it would help Linux audio in general to have good quality plugins (even if they’re not open source). It seems that i was wrong and probably i should have given this money to support free software projects. Or also buying the Harrison plugins as they seem to have the will to support the open source world anyway, whatever the cost, even if it’s not as profitable as other OS. Even if it can be seen as a “masochistic allegiance to one operating system”.

#24

@youki: Its not my responsibility to determine your reasons for buying the product, other than to make sure it works for you as intended, and to the best of my knowledge that is the case.
As far as I am aware I have always been open / transparent about my reasons for supporting and / or developing products for linux, and continue to do so. I also contribute to linux projects where possible, but I have to balance this with the necessary commercial requirements for maintaining a viable company.
I don’t think any commercial company would consider it appropriate to discuss specific product sales figures on a public forum but that does not imply lack of transparency or some kind of deceit and to suggest or expect otherwise could be at best naive or at worst offensive.
I am also slightly puzzled that you consider supporting another closed source / proprietary product would be any more (or differently) beneficial to open source software?

#25
Its not my responsibility to determine your reasons for buying the product, other than to make sure it works for you as intended, and to the best of my knowledge that is the case.

No problem, it was my choice to buy, i just try to explain that i realise my expectations were wrong and why i’m disapointed.

I also contribute to linux projects where possible

I’m maybe missed some things. Except writing some code for LinuxVST support in Ardour, i don’t know what you did to contribute to other Linux projects. Could you tell me more about it ?

but I have to balance this with the necessary commercial requirements for maintaining a viable company. I don't think any commercial company would consider it appropriate to discuss specific product sales figures on a public forum but that does not imply lack of transparency or some kind of deceit and to suggest or expect otherwise could be at best naive or at worst offensive. I am also slightly puzzled that you consider supporting another closed source / proprietary product would be any more (or differently) beneficial to open source software?

I found the following sentence on Paul Davis page : “Linux is more than a business. Linux is a community. Linux is more than an operating system. Linux is a dream. We know that as computer users, we represent a small percentage of the computer industry as a whole. The important thing is that we know we’re right, and we’re going to change the future of the software industry one long night at a time. – Emmett Plant”. But he was maybe still young and naive when he made this webpage, I don’t know.

My point here is that i understand your need to maintain a viable company, but Linux is obviously not only about buiseness, else it wouldn’t exist anymore at all. My point about Harrison is that they probably could have make better buiseness working totally with proprietary softwares, disdaining Linux, not giving a shit about Ardour. Some people told them to do so. But according to the answers he gave to these people i believe that Ben Loftis do care about the free software world while making buiseness at the same time. You may find it offensive if you want, but reading your prose, stuff like ““masochistic allegiance to one operating system”” for instance, i’m not sure anymore at all that it’s your case. Your choice, no problem, but again i’m just telling my disapointment.

We could lose time hours on this topic, i actually think there is just a difference of culture and point of view here.

#26

@Youki
Harrison is a big number, big big big :slight_smile: Their xdubber is full linux server madi monster whith ardour on it to track movie scores
160 channel, no problem.
So they are deep in “the platform”

Profile-Spectrum of “users and developers” on this Ardour community webspace is huge.
Thats what is going to give a best Fruits for itself.
Anyone tried to solder own gear? A bit of smoke, soldering iron,motherboard, parts and patience, patience…
Im not against any “dsp” stuff. I love it. But for me, “analog thing” it is the most important in sound-audio engineering world.
Sound is like a water in Pipe, and i must know how it flows, where are barriers in that pipe, where it scratches, how fast its moving…
And so on. And we are all happy to record, clean, edit, mix, master on Linux and Ardour plus plugins and so on.
This discussion about platform for audio or not… Its a good thing to do more improvements.
I hope that GPL-ised developers and commercial will proceed to develop for Linux.
And i hope that some of you are in DIY projects, soldering Gear and learning about real analog word.
Analog, its a mother of audio engineering :slight_smile:

#27
My point about Harrison is that they probably could have make better buiseness working totally with proprietary softwares, disdaining Linux, not giving a shit about Ardour

I don’t know about that - I can’t speculate on what it may have cost them to use free software as the base for their product, but to the best of my knowledge you can’t download / inspect / modify / build from source the Mixbus DSP or the Harrison plugins. If that is the case, then by all the definitions I’m familiar with it implies that while Ardour is open source, I would consider Mixbus to be proprietary.

@nedzad: Couldn’t agree more, as an analogue engineer long before I became involved in DSP, the main focus of my software has been to take what I hoped was a good understanding of analogue equipment and try to replicate what makes it so sought after. I’ll leave others to judge whether that’s been successful, but for me analogue has always been the benchmark for determining the (sonic) quality of any digital alternative.

#28
I would consider Mixbus to be proprietary.

Hum…, we both agree with that. And i think you actually understood what i was meaning. Just in case i’m wrong about that i’ll repeat it differently. The point is not that Mixbus is proprietary software or not (the same with your plugins) but that they’re friendly to the free software world and that they put Linux on the same level than the two other OS. Even if they make their money from Windows and Mac, probably not from Linux. I guess it’s clear told like that, isn’t it ?

Else you didn’t anwser one of my questions, but you’re free not to do it of course. If you don’t answer it i guess we can stop here, do we ?

#29
but that they're friendly to the free software world and that they put Linux on the same level than the two other OS
And your implication is that in some way I am not? I have as I said, always been entirely open about my reasons for developing software for linux, and that has not changed. I resent any accusation implied or otherwise, that I am in some way exploiting linux for commercial gain, when I have in fact spent / risked considerable amounts of my own money (and time) developing products I believe in, as a user as well as a developer for linux, often for very little return in the long term. The responsible commercial decision therefore has to be to look at other opportunities and to allocate the available resources accordingly. I don't regard that as a betrayal of any commitment I have made to developing for linux. My original comment about other operating systems was intended to point out that if someone just wants to set up a working DAW, and therefore buys a new PC, most likely with another OS pre-installed, then it might make more sense to use some of the software available for that platform is that not a reasonable (and I would have thought, entirely obvious) suggestion?
#30

I have decided to stay out of this for the time being, other than to say I support LinuxDSP’s reasoning and he has been quite open about all of this in the past. I don’t read it as he has betrayed Linux in any way shape or form, he is trying to make a living, simple as that.

   Seablade
#31

Everybody have to make a living, even the thousands of devs who work on Debian for free for instance. And a lot of people benefit (even financially for some of them) of their work.
The future will tell if it’s wrong or not anyway. If the feeling i had about your statements here is wrong then i apologize in advance and i’ll be more than happy to buy your future plugins. If it shows to be right, then, well, life goes on.
Now i’d rather spend my time working on my songs, i wish you all the best. Bye.