Complete Classical Music workflow

I just format my sample and audio recording drives NTFS and have no problems reading and writing between Linux and Windows but, yes, I assume exFAT will be a much better option without needing to rely on reverse engineering and such.

I disagree that using KXStudio might “severely damage their system” but perhaps I’ve just been lucky. I hope it goes without saying that please do take this back-and-forth in the manner I intend – healthy debate! It’s been fantastic to open up dialog about classical audio and Linux and I hope that everyone can work to making Linux seem even more accessible and not some difficult-to-use OS that can only be touched by those with a PhD in Infomation Technology :wink:

On PCLinuxOS the message is very clear: “Install only from our repositories”. Maybe on PCLinuxOS the risk is very high. However for Debian based distros we have the experience of AVLinux, or Ubuntu Studio. I assume the risk of mix repositories, if something is broken I think always there are people helping, if not reinstall it or use other partition with the same OS…
I’m sorry, I’m just a Linux fan… :slight_smile:

Well, the first director of the Royal Seville Symphony Orchestra was late maestro Vjekoslav Šutej, a Croat. And when moving to Seville he invited quite a number of Croatian musicians there with him. 5 or 6 actually passed the audition. Majority of them returned home after a few years. They are still active players and still keep Seville in fond memory.

I made a switch in 2009, never looked back since. I started with Ubuntu and then distrohopped for a while, I can’t even remember all the distros I ran for at least half a year, including Arch and Gentoo (I even ran Ardour on Slackware for a couple of weeks…). Finally I have settled on Debian stable. I didn’t notice any meaningful performance difference between all those distros anyway… (I’m sure many will disagree, YMMV). The most important thing performance-wise for me is to install minimal system and then add only necessary components, xorg, terminal, a web browser, and audio (and video) production tools. I don’t use any desktop environment, only Fluxbox window manager. That is my multimedia production system. I keep the system for general computing purposes on separate partition. It means I dual boot Debian stable (for music, lightweight and unclogged)… and Debian stable with full KDE desktop. Beauties of liberty…
As for music production, Ardour is gigantic application and an overkill for some trivial tasks. I use whole range of tools, depending on needs: Qtractor, Rosegarden (composition with a score), Jack Timemachine, Audacity, MHwaveedit, some CLI tools: Ecasound, Sox, Lame, arecord, and for score writing Lilypond/Frescobaldi or Musescore. But for any serious work, especially when I get paid for it, I use Ardour.

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I remember him, a great conductor. Perhaps the most beautiful time of the Seville orchestra.

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KXStudio I’m sure is good though I never use it, and I’m glad there are distributions tailored for specific purposes, as that helps to accomodate what the general distros are lacking – and that is an all in one solution to have realtime apps work under one roof. The mainstream distros do not come installed by default with realtime or low-latency kernel builds – and the caveat of cross-referencing repos was a point I was making, but I was contemplating along the goal lines of KXStudio keeping its builds for its own project because the reality is if a project like KXStudio started doing this (publishing their builds for distro X), they would be getting a lot of bugreports from users who by default would not be using a realtime kernel(which could be the essence of the issue they are having). – it was this point I was trying to insinuate about why it is good to have distros maintained for a specific purpose, it would be surprising to me if KXstudio starting doing this, along with any other distro tailored for the same purpose.

… all in hindsight of course is that it is completely at the risk of the user who would already know what they’re getting into when mixing repos.

[Edit: I never mentioned KXStudio would severely damage a system. Perhaps that may have resonated by interpretation – but the worst damage that I can see happening is a program or a system crash. Nothing as “severely” damaging the system because you are not sourcing experimental libc system call libraries which can. Unless you are actually sourcing system core libraries such as experimental/testing libc you definitely can cause severe damage. But you’re not sourcing to testing and dangerous libraries like this so you have less to worry about. :cowboy_hat_face:

– it’s ok I’m not going to debate anything. I’m not saying you can or cannot do these things, it’s just a general consensus and user community reminder for any potential user out there who may not be familiar about… just an exercise of reminder to take note of risks.

the worst case is a stall, but that is guaranteed if the user is not mixing testing/experimental repositories with unstable system core libraries. The likelyhood that you guys are not doing this is highly unlikely as you’re all experienced enough to know the difference between the different branches of repositories for the popular distributions.

cheers
]

– as for ntfs (more specically the ntfs-3g project – which is userland filesystem meaning it is not part of the linux kernel project), yes it is much more stable and safe than exFAT, but the company supporting it (tuxera) does not bother to optimize it for speed as I suppose that would compete with their own licensed product lines. I don’t recall how much is reverse-engineered with ntfs-3g but tuxera would have the full specs to ntfs by MS’ permission…

The problem though with ntfs-3g is that it is slow on linux. The plus is that it is more safe, and also that it supports files greater than 4GB(unlike vfat/fat32). If you’ve got large files to work with and they’re stored on ntfs, you will be hitting road-blocks in performance but it is safer to use than the current state with exfat.

@Aleph
PcLinuxOS is a good choice, it uses the stable srpms from the work of fedora/redhat, and that is a formula for stable package things and that I think is a good thing. :slight_smile:

this can be done generally with any of the mainstream distros these days, they’ve all got the equivalent of debian’s netinst.iso which is a minimal installer – the problem though with debian is that the official netinst does not come bundled with firmware, you’ll need to get the unofficial netinst build otherwise you may not be able to use the network interface(a common thing for networking hardware is it requires firmware in order to work correctly)… debian is not entirely straight-up a user-friendly distro, but to me it’s the best thing available.

Do you know Virage? This is what it says about a RT kernel:

https://viragelinux.com/about-virage/

This has never been a problem for me because I’ve always used ethernet/wired internet connection during installation and it’s always worked out of the box. The first thing after the installation would be to install firmware-linux-nonfree and the firmware for realtek/iwlwifi/ralink/whatever-wifi and I was ready to continue. And if I didn’t have ethernet, the installer clearly states which package it needs for the wifi to work properly, which than can be easily found on internet and put on thumb drive… a minimal effort for having the system that will be reliable and rock solid for the next five or so years.
For those that don’t want to deal with the installation and customization there is AVlinux or Ubuntu Studio, I haven’t tried any of those in a long time, but both seem to have a lot of satisfied users. So, to each his own.

We seem to have taken a little bit of a scenic tour away from classical audio so just bringing this back into the realm of the OP and asking if there are any questions/discussions to had to do with audio capture/mic technique, recommendations of microphones or favorites that are in use, if anyone successfully achieves restoration work purely using Linux and open-source options, a typical editing session/cd and files export etc, and plugin options/techniques that we’ve not covered here.

I should mention that there are a few other audio apps on Linux that get regular use from me. Asunder (CD ripper), Soundconverter, and Wavbreaker (I use this to create a cue file of summer tour concert recordings so that I can burn a copies for a choral director so that she can listen back at home and pick the best takes of each piece. She prefers this to clicking around with flacs and mp3s!).

And perhaps given this is, indeed, an Ardour forum (and not just an Ardour-on-Linux forum), it would be great to hear from any Ardour/Mixbus users on Windows and Mac.

I have my own couple of questions to ask: what type of Ardour dither (or external) do you generally use for classical music? Do you resample internally through Secret Rabbit Code in Ardour or externally via something like SoX? What are generally your standard release formats in terms of codec, samplerate and bit depth?

from the site,

Real Time kernel is NOT used in the default installation, because NVIDIA drivers are NOT compatible (yet) with this kind of kernel.

perhaps that author doesn’t know a user can still install nvidia with the variable workaround like this,

export IGNORE_PREEMPT_RT_PRESENCE=1
./[nvidia installer]
(or by first extracting it with Nvidia-run -x, cd newpath, setting the variable and doing ./nvidia-installer)

Not sure why he has that posted because other users use this on other distributions and it works relatively well as a workaround…

Sorry, we got carried away!

I use CLI applications most of the time: cdparanoia for ripping, lame (wav -> mp3), SoX for another types of conversion and resampling and ffmpeg for changing sound in a video.

If someone has got a proposal, I am all ears!!! I need to check this Audacitiy editor you talked about, I have got some expectations from it, but other then that it just boils down to endless combat with spectrograms, notch and HP filters with automation, with poor results.

For dither: shaped noise. Resampling through Ardour, lately I have been recording directly to 44.1k, anyway. I use 96k only as a selling point for the people who pay and are impressed by the big numbers and HQ label. Release format: 16/44.1k, always. It has been much discussed on this forum about 16/44.1k covering the whole range of human auditory perception, both in terms of frequency and loudness.

Agreed. I loved the Xiph video and was totally convinced then got cold feet because it would mean that someone I highly respect in the industry is simply playing marketing games and playing to people who think they are getting better quality by paying more money. I brought this up on another thread and now feel a little more secure in putting out 44.1/16 for every format. Again, people I respect say they hear a difference but my guess is that it is the money talking :wink: This is an important consideration for classical given we are looking for pristine capture, editing and master but the research says 44.1/16 achieves that. The only remaining questions I have is whether capturing at a higher samplerate then down-sampling pre-dither is beneficial in any way to intricate tails etc. I can’t remember where the discussion took place but there was also the notion that in today’s wireless world, capturing higher than 44.1 can also allow unwanted on-location RF interference that would then need to be dealt with in post. Better to remove at capture, or so the advice goes…

Plus, seemingly every classical album I listen to these days is on a regular CD player in my car. I do have a Super Audio CD player at home but, honestly, I do not hear the difference. If anything, my brain has occasionally wanted to tell me that the normal CD layer sounds better as I can audition the two with the press of a button. What I don’t understand is why the record companies bother creating these hybrid SA-CD discs as it is not like they are giving people the option of buying regular CD versus paying more for SA-CD. I’m probably missing some key part of marketing strategy here :slight_smile:

sounds like you guys like bringing up now and then things about spectrograms, – it’s hard to find this for Linux and I could jest out a link I found on wikipedia that lists alternative spectrogram software if I may, …
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bioacoustics_Software

I was kind of poking around the topic the other day but I’m still looking into how to use some of these. (there’s one called raven and it looks to me quite interesting – not sure yet on its editing capabilities though, but it looks well maintained, has a commercial pro edition)

@anon60445789
have you ever done phase-correction for post-production?

In other words (I haven’t done this but have been doing some reading), there is some software available that does phase corrections on an audio file with the help of a separate recording. That special recording needs to be a mic placed at the front of the playing speaker, and it is this new input of recording that corrects the audio file to compensate for the capabilities of the speaker itself… (note: not talking IR things :slight_smile: )

I wonder how practical it is and since you guys are into advanced audio I thought I might bring this topic up. If anyone wants to know what software I’m talking about I can try to provide a link… Last time I checked there is one that does the playback live and so no recompiling of audio is necessary, just the speaker-profile is applied and the original audio is fed into the software for playback directly. I wonder if anyone here has used software like this and if it really does make a difference.

let me know if anyone is interested on this, and I can provide the link where I spotted this, could be a viable element to the spectral line topics I see recurring here and then… Not only does the audio need to be perfect within the produced audio file, the speaker too can have its own compensation profile created for it…remarkable, didn’t know such things existed.

I think we might be talking cross-purposes about spectrogram stuff. I’m personally talking about analogous software to things like RX, CEDAR, ReNOVAtor. The last two mentioned are particularly high-end restoration tools used by classical engineers to remove coughs, chair squeaks, piano pedal noise etc. RX can achieve much of this for a lot less cash but I’ve never seen as much magic happen as with CEDAR and ReNOVAtor. Truly exceptional tools at an exceptional cost :wink: It all depends whether your clients depend on this week in week out. For me it is RX and formerly the built-in restoration spectrogram stuff in Sequoia or Samplitude. There are also very useful automatic plugins to deal with broadband noise, clipping, hum, clicks etc and for this I’ve used Wavearts Restoration (excellent!), RX (also great) as well as built-in tools in Samplitude Pro X Suite (probably great but GUI is not as straightforward). For Linux we have Noise-repellent but you’d need to know enough to compile the source. As things go it isn’t hard as long as you don’t mind searching for the dependencies until it compiles without further error. As far as we can tell, Linux currently has Audacity for potential spectral editing but having watched tutorial videos and tried it myself, it feels clunky and a lot of hard work and not a lot of machine-learning behind it.

For phase correction, I have have used Merging’s Pan Noir to great effect. There’s a video here that explains it. I believe there’s built-in phase analysis stuff in Ardour (or maybe only in Mixbus?) introduced by Harrison Consoles but limited to suggesting whether channels should be directly in or out of phase. In my case, at least, this is one major reason I aim for a single stereo pair as much as humanly possible! Plus, this is about the limit for me for phase correction. For speaker calibration there’s the new iLoud pair with built-in ARC measurement, or separate ARC microphone kit for other speakers etc (but I assume you’d need Windows running for the measuring stuff in this case).

So, to summarize, spectral editing as I need it for classical is a big hole right now on Linux unless you run RX or similar in Wine (and here we are limited to self-standing editing outside of DAW) or use Wine or LinVST to run the automatic plugin stuff (Wavearts plugins seem particularly good for this). Phase alignment is a lot of fun in Pan Noir but more fun is being able to run a single pair of cards or omnis, use Linux from start to finish and call it good :wink:

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Not quite. There is plenty of those to choose from. Ardour has one built in - you need select the area you want to analyze, then right click on the selection and from dropdown menu select “Spectral Analysis”. Besides that there is Calf Analyzer plugin. Then there is Sonic Visualizer, Audacity has got spectrogram wiev, SoX can produce spectrogram, etc.
The problem is what to do with the information you read from the spectrogram ie. how to filter undesired sounds.

Well, there is a possibility they genuinely believe what they are saying. The question is why pay more, because if you want to produce excellent 16/44.1 music nowadays, you need to have the same level of gear in terms of quality and price as if you want to record 24/96 and I don’t believe there is much difference in price between CD and DVD blanks.
I did assist one sound engineer who was specialized in classical music and was all into that quality thing, he had his own preamps, his own own microphones (with military grade capsules, used for intelligence tasks, he actually claimed Neumann and Schoeps are superficially assembled and sloppy…), he used to record everything 192k, and desperately wanted to have 64/384k gear, his cables were 1 inch (2.5 cm) thick and he used to “demagnetize” them with some kind of frequency sweep every 45 minutes… it was annoying, really, but when talking to him over the coffee, I got the impression that he is genuinely into all of that. Oh, the recording (cello and piano sonatas) was very good and did have some interesting timbre, but if I didn’t know about the whole process, I wouldn’t notice anything special about it. Maybe I should buy $30 000 hifi system to be able to percieve that quality, who knows…

Anyways, If someone wants me to record at 24/96, I have the means to deliver, and I’ll be happy to oblige. Moreover, I see no reason to charge more for few gigs of extra disk space :slight_smile:

Right, my point exactly. The real world kinda gets in the way of needing to spend that much. I’m using my Toyota Sienna to listen to these audiophile recordings when driving my kids places. SA-CD player + nice KEF speakers at home are rather cancelled out by heat pump running on the other side of the wall, desktop fan noise and fridge one room over. All relatively quiet on their own but they add together. This is why I don’t mind spending a little more on good quality headphones :wink:

Talking of headphones, for one recording back in CT I knew that the director of the band would want to listen back to various takes so I invested in a Presonus headphone amp. It was far better than passing back and forth one pair of headphones but it still resulted in one of the director’s 7506 pads falling off as he wasn’t exactly careful with the handling. I’ve since switched to a Marantz PHA-3 preamp that looks awfully like a clone of the SoundDevices HX-3. I don’t even know whether they’ve been forced to remove it from the US market for that reason. All I know is that I snapped it up quickly and that it sounds great, is built like a tank and can run off AA batteries. Perhaps in future given the dual 1/4 inch and 3.5mm jacks, I’ll ask directors to bring their own favorite pair of headphones! What do others do in that situation? I know some of the larger interfaces have 2 headphone outs but certainly they feel a little under-powered compared to dedicated amp options.

I’m happy with my Audio-Technica ATH-M40 X. They are affordable and very neutral sounding. I feel I can rely on them to make right microphone placement decisions. I don’t use separate preamp, my E-mu 0404 USB is known to have a nice headphone preamp built in.

So no advantage really of going for the M50 X or the rather extravagant M70X in terms of needing to place microphones? I have the M70X on my wishlist but it is very much a wishlist versus reality. I enjoy the Sony MDR-7506s as mentioned but you never know. They felt pedestrian in terms of wear but the Beyer pads made a huge difference. With 10-20k range, it certainly covers all my hearing capabilities. The M70X goes has 5-40k range. Good to know :wink:

Which Beyerdynamic do you use, DT 770? 250-80-32 Ohm?

My Audient iD14 has a powerful headphone output, it works well with the AKG 701, which have a high impedance.
For home I use a fantastic Fidelity V8 headphone amplifier, with two jack outputs, but I don’t see it usable for outside production audio.
The Meze 99 Neo headphones are closed but sound incredibly good.

So I use the DT880 Pros at home but I was referring literally to swapping out the earpads on the 7506s with Beyerdynamic velour pads to make them more comfortable: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0016MF7W2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1