Complete Classical Music workflow

Sorry @Vasakq, Sorry, I’ve only been using it for a couple of months, everything is perfect on Linux for me, but I’ve only used two microphones, I don’t know what about SPDIF/ADAT.
About internal/external sync switch I don’t think there is any application similar to Windows.

Thank you! It is important to know that we can have two reliable channels with Audient ID14 on Linux, because this interface is one of the best options out there.

I am in a similar position with a wife, two kids and 4 animals :wink: My first reaction is to say make the album with what you have. I’d certainly pay to listen to the finished product based on the demos you already provided! I’d want to listen to the uncompressed files over reference monitors and headphones though before I say for sure. If you have questions or want us to listen to stuff for feedback you should feel free to do so. Some of the projects closest to my heart were the ones using my first equipment. My other thought would be to start experimenting, if possible, with standard stereo techniques like ORTF, DIN, NOS, EBS, spaced omni pair etc by borrowing some microphones or spending just a little on a pair like the B5s. In a way this isn’t a side step because if I read your earlier post correctly, right now you are not even using identical microphones? I don’t know what the prices are like in Seville but I can find B5s on Amazon.com for less than 70 USD each. Remember for this you get both cardioid and omni caps. Just a thought. The question with B5s is not their sound quality (they stand up very well to CM3/4, OM1, Rode NT55 etc) but their quality control, I guess. I’ve never had issues with them and if I had no other microphones I’d happily record a flute album with them. I recorded a masters conducting recital with them recently (in ORTF using the Shapeways mount directly into a Marantz PMD661 Oade Brothers concert mod) and the client and I were extremely pleased.

And as for LUFS level, -20 LUFS integrated is definitely in the right ballpark. I would use one of the free LUFS meters. I can’t think of others off the top of my head but the two I like are x42’s and Klangfreund’s (free port here). I don’t think this free one does true peak measuring but here you can find all the goodies like the multimeter I use. I’m sure there are others. Just load one of these onto the master buss and take note of true peak, integrated and max momentary and/or short term. Like I said, -20 LUFS integrated is good but I know others who push higher. -18 LUFS / -1dBTP feels like a good compromise too. As long as you are in that region, the listener does have a volume knob! At least that’s the way I’ve been thinking about it. I do like thinking in terms of forte levels and so by default aim for the momentary max value to be about +4 LU above whatever LUFS or K-meter scale I’m using. I’m pretty sure the whole point of something like K-20 was that fortissimo was around -16dB RMS which will, depending on the instrument, obviously give higher true peak values. There’s certainly no need to slam masters these days. I think a ballpark LUFS value and a check that dynamic range isn’t too much for the intended listening environment is probably good. Anyone else?

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meters.lv2 that you’ve linked features a true-peak bargraph-meter. Also the EBU-R128 plugin includes dBTP (as per EBU spec). – They’re GPL licensed (free as in freedom), while ready-to-run binaries are commercial (same as ardour).

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@x42: Apologies if I was confusing…I was only meaning that the freebie port of Klangfreund LUFS meter didn’t do true peak metering unlike the full version and multimeter etc. @Aleph: the x42 plugins are definitely worth your time and would fit really well into any classical mastering project.

that’s nice there’s cross-reference recommendation between the two operating systems, could be a viable reference approach… one thing I can add to this for potentially any other user out here who wants to make the migration is to try things out in virtualbox and wait just a little for the new “exFAT” implementation getting committed into the latest Linux 5.xx kernel. An MS rep on the LKML (linux kernel mailing list), recently had internal company talks and gave back the ok for allowing full release of the exFAT specs – there’s no longer a patent issue around this filesystem.

This may be good to know for new Windows->Linux users because a filesystem currently does not exist between the two that is known to be rock stable and fast other than VFAT/FAT32 which of course is a problem because it cannot have files greater than 4 GB in size. The current implementation of exFAT is a reverse-engineer hack, and is known to cause severe data corruption… Some Linux users are not aware of this and they end up losing gigs of data – this problem will finally be addressed by having full-spec support directly into later kernels. No more data corruption for exfat can be a good tide of improvement for new Windows->Linux migrants. This is not an intent by MS(OF COURSE), it is merely a consequence of permitting full-specs and removing any potential binded patents around this filesystem, it will eventually benefit Linux users who may want to still work between both operating systems.

Thank you very much bachstudies!! Unfortunately today nobody pays anymore for a CD… :frowning:

I’ll try the plugins you say when I have some time.

Yes, my mics are different. I know the different types of stereo configurations, I have seen many in the different concerts in which I have been recorded, especially for Radio Nacional de España. I personally have not tried them with my mics, but after hearing different recordings that have made me and seeing some comparisons on Youtube I think that a simple set up of two mics separated 50cm, or up to two meters, depending on the distance of the interpreter or group give a fairly good stereo feeling and spatiality, although I know it can have phase problems. However, as we say here, for tastes colors … :slight_smile:

I attach the wav files.



No! If you ask me, your recordings are perfectly acceptable. It is only matter of taste what would another sound engineer do with them, and that may have nothing to do with microphones, but with recording space, amount and tonality of applied reverb, EQ decisions, etc. I am convinced if you are to find some nice recording space (some church, theatre, or large gallery) it would add much more to the quality than some insanely expensive microphone. People are listening to your playing not to microphones and if the recording is technically correct (no clipping, not overly loud or quiet, no hiss or hum, fine frequency balance, etc), I doubt anyone will notice lack of “airiness”, “detail” or “warmth” some very expensive mics bring in.

It will! And not because of its price point, but because it is designed differently than most cardioid mics out there. It does not have HF lift most other cardioids have. So it will not sound “airy” nor “metalic”, but “full-bodied”, maybe even “dull” to some (oh, how I hate these descriptions, I guess it should be sufficient to say it has flat frequency response from 200 Hz upwards…). It is just different than most, now the question is whether you need THAT kind of quality or not. I happen to adore the sound I get form it, but, admittedly, there were times I regret I did’t use much brighter Rodes (in omni mode). It is good to have range of tools and apply the best tool that current situation requires.

Best wishes and good luck with your project!

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Thank you @vasakq , yes I’m sure a church or similar would be best, but the pieces I plan to record are quite difficult, and I want to record them one by one. Going many times to record a church could be complicated. Most of the albums I’ve recorded I’ve made in two days, but this project is going to take me a long time.

I keep thinking about CM4… :wink:

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We haven’t talked about headphones and speakers, which is very important to us.

I use Meze 99 Neo, which I think sounds pretty good. I also use AKG 701, which have good spatiality, are very sharp but somewhat rough, and I also use TH-02 TASCAMs for unimportant things.

I use ESI-nEar08 loudspeakers.

The CM-4 is so inexpensive that buying two of them as an experiment isn’t out of the question, and if they don’t suit you I doubt you’d have any trouble selling them. If they were expensive I could see justification in renting to test (but most music shops would not have these mics available for sale or rent, you have to order directly from Line Audio, from No Hype Audio in Belgium, or from a national representative like the one we have here in Canada where I live). But they’re very affordable.

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I have quite a few pairs of headphones. In my home “studio” (if that’s what you can call it!) I use the AKG 701s, Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pros and most recently and my absolute favorite the AudioTechnica ATH-R70x. For casual listening I absolutely love the Philips SHP9500, ATH-AD500X and Grado SR60s with a coin-sized cut-out of the foam. For on-location monitoring I use the usual Sony MDR7506 but changed out the pads for Beyerdynamic EDT250V ones.

I use KEF Q100 bookshelf speakers for classical purely because I’ve listened to so many classical albums of all shapes and sizes that I trust my ears with those better than a flat monitor that I might not listen to every day. Probably the strangest habit of my audio engineering but I know others who do the same. For location playback I’ve thought about picking up some of the IK Multimedia iLoud speakers that get some rave reviews for portable combined with sound quality. As I have mentioned, with two kids and various animals most of my mastering is done over headphones or during the day when the house is at its quiestest!

For monitoring I have a pair of the Neumann KH80 DSP monitors – I got them because they can be tuned to your room via an app (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaT_4OQ-i7E), which was important for me since I don’t have sound treatment. I haven’t actually done the tuning yet but plan to before my next serious project!

Yes, the more I think about it Line Audio seems like a good fit. For a total of around 500 EUR you can end up with 2 cards and 2 omnis for almost any classical situation (barring mid-side stuff). Even if you upgrade at some point, they will remain faithful backups and even ones that you choose over more expensive ones at times depending on the situation. I seem to be in the minority of people not totally bowled over by them but clearly so many people are that it should count for a lot! As @vasakq alluded to, for a lot of my projects having the “lift” is very pleasing for classical recording at a distance. Already having the AT4021 and AT4022 pairs seems like I would be adding similar quality versus stepping up to the next level. The nice thing about having the two pairs of Line Audio would be that you could also experiment with single bar arrays like boojum/jnorman stuff. I use that quite a lot for live concerts so I can pick one or blend in post.

I just listened to the 44.1/24-bit Syrinx file over mediocre Altec Lansing BXR1220 desktop speakers (another good test!) though at native resolution via DeadBeef audio player and again, I’m really pleased with what I’m hearing. There’s some high frequency content that might want to be ever-so-slightly tamed and only in a few places (no definite thoughts until listened to over reference headphones). Again, I hear excellent presence, tasteful reverb blend, satisfying blend of breath and tone. Just great stuff! I’m here to say, again, that perhaps just stick with what you have and use the money that you would have spent on two CM4s to take the family out to dinner to celebrate the release of your new album :wink: It really is hard to say change anything when the emotion immediately pulls you in on listening.

Make sure to listen on speakers setup properly for stereo monitoring. 2m separation will often produce a stereo image which “clumps” at each speaker, and does not produce the illusion of sound in the center of the stereo pair.

This is fascinating. Using this to visualize stereo image, it looks that the problem with using two spaced cards at 50cm for, say, solo flute, would indeed be a severe clumping but in the middle. Now, for solo flute where you might not necessarily want a wide image this might be fine (especially given the addition of true stereo reverb). It looks like that setup has an SRA of 180 degrees. With 2m spacing the SRA goes down to 30 degrees! I suppose it all depends on how one calculates the approximate SRA for a solo windwind player. Splaying the cards outwards does improve the clumping somewhat but not dramatically. I personally have never experimented with spaced other than with omnis and only according to the Williams Stereo zoom paper which ends up around 40cm maximum. Thoughts?

Hahaha, thank you @anon60445789!!! I think I will do it. :wink:
About the frecuency, yes, I think so but I tried to move down it but the sound get a bit plastic like… Maybe I don’t know very well how to do it. :frowning:

I tried several distances and I think that’s how I liked it best. AB separated by about one meter. My idea was to hear myself as if I were in a church, sitting about 4 or 5 meters away from the interpreter. The sound wouldn’t come directly from the flutist, there would be a lot of sound coming from the walls. One wall can be farther away than another or have some different decoration, that’s why two different microphones don’t seem crazy to me either… :slight_smile:

Maybe this can only be allowed by someone who is not a professional… :wink: