Complete Classical Music workflow

Ah, okay. I’m sorry, I didn’t get it right. Yeah, that’s normal. :slight_smile:

Well, if you want my totally honest opinion…

These recordings are great in the sense that they capture a HUGE amount of stylish and emotional playing. Congrats! And as a major plus, your current setup seems to deliver good recordings with real presence. I’d be tempted not to change anything for right now! Or at least not side-step to CM3/4, B5 or sE8 pairs.

Given your obvious talent and no doubt a good ear for what a professional album sounds like, I’d wait and save up to get a versatile pair of microphones that will last you a lifetime. A pair like the Telefunken M60 stereo master set (good value with 3 different polar patterns for each microphones), or as I said previously, I’m looking at a pair of AT4050 which are fantastic neutral mics (read transparent not boring!). I don’t know whether others classify the ATs as “top tier” but as you allude to, brand of microphone seems to say more than good placement, room, or whether the less-expensive microphone is sonically as good or so close it isn’t worth the extra $$$$. The other set that I’d highly recommend to you that is great is the Shure KSM141 pair with two polar patterns (via a clever rotating collar) to cover both cardioid and omni pair work. I consider the AT4022, AT4021, AT4050 and the KSM141 all fantastic value for money. I personally would also audition the sE4400a pair if you can as you might be surprised how good it sounds with flute and again super versatile with the different polar patterns.

I suppose it all depends on what you want to achieve. Making the occasional promotional material I wouldn’t want to change a thing. If you want to create a professional album or two? Upgrade to the KM141 or AT4050 pair with the knowledge you can use them to confidently record others too. You’ll uncover some detail in the instrument that isn’t there with the current setup. Want to make lots of albums with that extra magical hard-to-put-your-finger-on sound and have people admire you more because of the brand they see up on the mic stand? Go for the Telefunken, DPA, Gefell and Schoeps stuff :wink:

And while we are at it…These two books make for fantastic reading:

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@vasakq: So this recorded with a modified DIN (90° @ 20 cm) given the CM3 polar pattern? How far back in the church were you? If I’m being very picky there’s not quite enough direct sound for my ears and with an SRA for the DIN of 101° (and even more with the CM3s in that configuration) it might have been nice to get a little closer. It’s early in the day so I might not be hearing things correctly either (pre-coffee!).

EDIT: I will add on a second and third listen that the archlute/theorbo or whatever it is comes across magnificently!

Your observation is correct. Those old churches (1700s, 1800s) are very challenging acoustical spaces to make recordings. The “stage” is actually the altar niche, 6-7 meters wide and cca 8 meters deep, with high ceiling, walls made of stone blocks covered with plaster, rather small space with lots of reflective surfaces. Actually, the mics are very closely positioned, on the left side, much closer to the flutes - around 1,5 meter, or as closely as possible to maintain at least some sonical balance with the voice which is far right, some 4 or so meters away. The problem with flutes is that they are positioned close to the wall (right behind them) and I suspect the reflections from the wall make their sound fuzzy. On the another side, the singer is also near the wall, but she projects the sound in only one direction, unlike woodwind instruments, and therefore sounds much clearer. The theorbo is in the middle, ie. in the open space, at 2.5 meter from the mikes so its sound is the clearest. The only way I know to tame old churches’ acoustic is to employ two figure of 8 mics (possibly ribbons…) in parallel (not Blumeline but AB spaced pair) because they have strong rejection at 90°/270° so the reflections from the sides are not being captured. Unfortunately, I don’t have any of those (yet…). Recording live concerts in small spaces is always full of compromises, but we are doing our best :slight_smile: Anyway, thanks for listening and for the remarks, and thanks for opening interesting discussion, there is a lot to be learned from it.

Could you tell us how does Audient id14 work with Linux? I am interested what kind of functionality is available with alsamixer (does it have SPDIF/ADAT, internal/external sync switch and the like).

@vasakq: Yes, here on the West coast of USA, good spaces are few and far between. I’ve had to make far worse recordings because of being limited to where I can set up etc. Once in a while there’s a good (not great) space and I can set up where I want and just so happens to coincide with the use of a standard ORTF (hurray for Shapeways 3d-printed ORTF mounts!) Otherwise, I tend to use one of the three 90° options at 20, 25 or 30cm (depending on the required SRA). It is a rare thing these days that omni pairs are used because it is mainly recordings with an audience or in spaces where I really don’t want the sub-optimal space included.

Yes, I also regret I can’t use omnis more, because, in my view, they capture the sound in a way which is the closest to the sound perceived from the audience.
While we are at omnis I have participated in making some youtube videos (I recorded the sound) employing two Rodes NT5 with omni capsules, spaced at 40 cm, in some fine concert spaces. Both recordings are without added reverb:

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Now those are some yummy recordings! Absolutely beautiful! I owned the NT5 matched pair and added omni caps at one stage but sold them (as I replaced them with a closely matched pair of ADK TL-51 which turned out to be one of the last new pairs available in the US at the time, apparently). I loved the NT5s in omni mode but the cards sounded a little sterile/brittle to me. I know Tony Faulkner enjoys Rode but I feel there are better companies out there at that price point (sE for a start). But, as I said, the Rode omnis are fabulous and your youtube recordings are stellar.

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Check out Ma Recordings (https://www.marecordings.com/) for some stunning and gorgeous recordings, all done on location in beautiful-sounding spaces, using a single pair of omni mics (DPAs, I believe) through custom cables into customized portable recorders.

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If the one Bach flute sonata extract is anything to go by, I’m super impressed. So if I’m reading right, the recording was made straight to the Korg digital recorder with built in SSD using two microphones. This adds something to my thinking about future equipment as I’m currently debating whether to stick to entirely field recorder(s) even for session recording. The obvious downside to using something like the Korg or in my case one of the SD Mixpres or Zoom F4/6/8 is that there is no easy way for the performer/conductor to listen back. The only way I can think is by creating cue points at major section changes. It’s just not as easy as a DAW screen. I was thinking about buying an ipad so that I could use the Wingman app and Zoom equivalent and I know that with the Zoom, at least, you can cue up files that way. Anyhow, interesting find. I suppose if this company can make 3-day-long recordings work with just a recorder, I can too!

Yes, that’s right – Todd Garfinkle (Ma Recordings) went direct from the mics into the recorder. He’s used a variety of recorders over the years, including the Korg MR1000 and MR2000, plus DAT machines and probably a few others. He has optimized everything…I’m not sure how much difference those high-end cables actually make, but who am I to question his judgment? I have the old Korg MR1000 and it’s a pretty great-sounding device (stereo only, though, and it uses a hard disk instead of an SSD and can’t be upgraded to SSD).

With the MixPre you can attach a few different brands of portable mixing boards, any of which allow you to add cue marks with a dedicated button (you can also do this with the * button on the MixPre if you prefer).

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OK, good to know. I have this vision in my head of recording in a perfect acoustic and monitoring from a separate control room using one long ethernet cable etc but the reality dictates, in my world at least, that I’m often in the same room making sure performers don’t knock over/bang into my equipment and I’m often needed for musical advice in terms of tuning, ensemble etc.

It sounds like I should pick up a regular ipad + smart keyboard and one of the portable mixing boards and call it good. I haven’t figured out whether it is possible to cue up the cues/files via the Wingman app though this is less critical given I can be nearer the Mixpre at that point. It will certainly save me some money that I can put towards other worthy causes…

I don’t think that’s possible, at least not when I tried it just now in Wingman. Wingman’s transport controls are limited to record and stop. I find the external mixer easier to use for navigating between markers, setting gain, mixing, etc. than using the MixPre’s interface. I’m kind of astounded that some people like using the MixPre “M” plugin for recording, mixing, and even overdubbing music, as that tiny touchscreen just seems so unusable to me. If I were in my 20s maybe it wouldn’t be. :wink:

Agreed. I took one look at the plugin and thought it was a little like a toy. I’ve no doubt that it works as intended but at that point it’s probably better to just move to a laptop/desktop DAW approach with choice of plugins and without having to bounce down to fit new tracks on etc.

Can I ask which external mixer you use?

I bought a refurbished Korg NanoKontrol Studio, but kind of regret it as it’s not very well made. It works fine but is very “plasticy.” The folks at Sound Devices seem to prefer the Novation Launch Control for its better build quality.

And just to clarify…would either of these allow for cueing up marks/files quickly for review?

I can’t speak for the Novation, but this is one thing I like about the Korg, because it has dedicated buttons for that. It has a Marker Set button (press to create a marker) and then just to the right of that it has forward-and-back buttons so you can quickly jump from one marker to the next. The thing I don’t like about the Novation is that many of its buttons are “soft buttons” whose function changes depending on modes, and it’s too easy for me to forget how to do things. I like dedicated buttons that are clearly labeled so I don’t have to relearn how to use the thing each time I pick it up.

Actually just checked the manual and it says you can do this for the Novation control surface as well, but only through a user-defined shortcut. As I said above, I prefer having a dedicated button. So maybe I’m happy with the Korg after all! :wink:

Thanks so much for looking into this. A control surface and ipad are now on my definite to-buy list!

About the interpretation I think I’m sure of what I’m doing, but about the recording I had serious doubts …

Well, the conclusion I get is that it seems that the recordings don’t sound bad but they don’t sound totally professional. Isn’t that so? :slight_smile:

It seems that the CM4 won’t bring a big difference in sound, and to get something a little better I should invest around 1000€…

A committed question…: I know, with better microphones it would sound better, but I have two children in the university and spending 1000€ is an important effort… Do I make the CD with this material? If I didn’t say that I use those microphones, would you have noticed? Remember the guy who recorded with Behringer B5s a la Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment… :smiley:

Now a technical question, how do you see the sound level? The LUFs are around -20

@anon60445789 thank you very much also for the advice of the books!!