Excellent. Thank you, Glen, for clarifying. You don’t seem like a petite drummer, which I’m sure translates in the sound as well. All the best.
- lokak. 2023 klo 0.42 - lähettäjä no-reply@ardour.org:
FWIW, I’m currently investigating the “Virtuosity Drums” samples from Karoryfer and Versilstudios:
It isn’t brushes, but it is a “light” / “jazz-style” sample kit, with some pretty nice sounds.
Not to take anything away from the Black Perl or Blonde Bop, which are my current go-tos!
The DrumGizmo DRS Kit has brush samples (called “whiskers” in the kit files). If you don’t want to use DrumGizmo you could repurpose the samples using SFZ.
Glen & Robin…first & foremost, I want to say THANK YOU for the AVL Drumkit plugin! As a Linux user, native drum VSTi are few and far between. There are numerous VSTs available for “programmed drums”, but as someone who actually plays drums and captures the MIDI hits (as opposed to programming), the eye of the needle gets even smaller. I was a fan of EZDrummer on Windows, and AVL Drumkit is the closest replacement for that software. And in my opinion, even better sounding because it’s less “processed” and allows for better sculpting of drum tones to suit my tastes.
I have tinkered with AVL and was equally pleased with the Black Pearl and Red Zeppelin drumkits…both sounded fantastic IMO and I was thrilled to have a native Linux solution, rather than a convoluted Carla/LinVST/Yabridge hybrid solution with extra layers of complexity. KUDOS…what has been done is a first rate Linux solution in my eyes.
Unfortunately, as a “real” drummer, I can’t use it. Here’s the issue: the OVERWHELMING majority of drum kits are typically 5 pieces…kick, snare, 2 rack toms, and floor toms. The next most popular kit configs are probably 6 pieces…a 5 piece with 2nd floor tom. 4 piece kits aren’t “uncommon”, but they’re not nearly as popular. Folks like me…an overwhelming majority of human drummers who play their drums in real time…can’t use the AVL drumkits to capture the drum hits…not enough drums! One of the best VSTs for drums in the Linux ecosystem isn’t an option for the overwhelming majority of human drummers, because it’s at least 1 tom short!
If I could make a request, please consider modifying the AVL drumkits to accommodate 5-piece drumsets, or even 6?! 4-piece drummers will still be able to use AVL drums with 5-6 piece configurations, but you will likely pick up a LOT of new users who play 5-6 piece kits (such as myself, and nearly every other real-world drummer I know!).
I understand it isn’t practical to re-record samples from those kits. But I saw that a new kit, Blonde Bop, was created recently, so maybe create a 5-6 piece kit sometime in the future? Alternatively, DrumGizmo has multiple kit configs to accommodate many drumkits and they provide instructions on their website to “pitch shift” their existing sound samples with a linux tool called “sox”…the equivalent of “tuning your drums”. It’s kind of buried on their website, so here’s a link:
https://www.drumgizmo.org/wiki/doku.php?id=howto:pitch-shift-howto
Would it be possible to “pitch shift” the existing rack tom and floor tom of the Black Pearl and Red Zeppelin kits, thereby creating a 6-piece that ALL DRUMMERS (well…about 98% of drummers) could use? This seems like an easy enough solution to implement, and add the MIDI note triggers. Perhaps the most challenging aspect would be to modify the graphics of the VST GUI, but I’m not a coder, and don’t want to presume that just because something sounds easy doesn’t mean it actually is?! LOL!
I don’t want this to come off as a criticism of AVL Drumkits. To reiterate, I think they’re fantastic and the best solution for VSTi drums in Linux. It’s just a shame that the best solution isn’t usable for folks like me who play “standard” 5-piece kits. Consider some of your favorite drummers and I think you will see that the MAJORITY of drummers play 5-6 piece kits.
I’m curious if this is something Robin and/or Glen would consider? Is this a reasonable request for real-world “human” drummers who mostly play 5+ piece kits? Is there anything I could do to encourage this to happen? KUDOS and THANK YOU for your contribution, but please consider making your wonderful VST available for US to use also.
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With the SF2, SFZ and Hydrogen version of the AVL kits it is easy to copy the floor or rack tom instrument and re-pitch it to get a fake 2nd floor or rack tom.
For SF2 and SFZ you can use the Polyphone soundfont editor, or a normal text editor for SFZ, for Hydrogen you can do it directly in the program.
Changing the x42 AVL plugins would be more involved, as it would need new graphics and programming.
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Let me also draw attention to this post I made recently in another thread:
From the list of Open Source drum kits I linked there, I have used the " GSCW DRUMS Library Vol.1" (free, not FLOSS) and the Tchimera Drum Kit (CC BY-SA 4.0) to great satisfaction with sfizz.
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Appreciate your responses Spotlight!
I have solved my problem by switching to DrumGizmo, so I’ve got what I want. But there is a real dearth of viable solutions for HUMAN drummers who just want to get behind the kit, MIDI out to the DAW, and capture drum tracks in real time.
Hydrogen is an impressive software, but not really designed for HUMAN drummers, IMO. Great for programming beats though. I’ve also investigated the Tchimera kit, but doesn’t really suit my purposes for ROCK drums.
Alternatives are always a good thing, so I don’t want to seem like I’m dismissing solutions that work for others. And DrumGizmo works for me. The entire point of my post above is to recognize that AVL Drumkit is one of the best options for HUMAN drummers to hook up a USB and capture MIDI hits. But despite that, MOST of us cannot use AVL Drumkit in that manner because it’s a 4-piece, and MOST drumsets are 5-pieces. That is ALL I’m saying…
If developers don’t care, that’s fine, as it’s their right to develop whatever tool they want, in the manner they want it. I’m grateful for what has been provided, gratis. But if they care to hear the feedback, what I’m saying is that their first-rate plugin is unusable to about 80%-90% of human drummers. I’m suggesting a way to capture those users. But if that isn’t a concern, or a priority, no worries, as I’ve got DrumGizmo working for me. But if that percieved issue is worthy of consideration and being addresses, I’d be happy to give AVL Drumkits another go as an option. And options are tough to come by in Linux. That is ALL I’m saying…
At the risk of derailing the thread, have you tried Ugritone drums? Not FOSS sadly but native Linux, tonnes of well-sampled kits, works great in Ardour fanned out to tracks.
I have used Ugritone Drums and own the Total Studio Drums. They ARE Linux native and are well done…both the sounds and the user interface! They are a good alternative.
Unfortunately, they were always considered “beta” and weren’t officially supported by Ugritone. Ugritone is no more (out of business), although their “MIDI groove” products have been forked into LoudStakk. But the plugins…gone. As much as I liked the Ugritone VST, it caused hella xruns on my system. Didn’t seem to affect my recordings (that I could hear), but the xrun tally for a single 3:00-4:00 song was easily 50+ events. I’ve never seen anything remotely like that experience, with so many xruns. I tried to troubleshoot it, and Ugritone indicated they were working on a “code cleanup” in a final version, but they went out of business before they released a fix. As you pointed out, it wasn’t Open Source…so I doubt a fix is EVER coming now. Ugritone tech indicated they were a little stumped also, as MANY folks were experiencing similar issues as me; but just as many were having no issues whatsoever. YMMV.
At this point in time, DrumGizmo and AVL Drumkits are the only path forward for native Linux solutions. The developer for MTPowerDrumkit (MTPDK) has indicated intention to release his Windows/Mac drum VST as a native linux package, but I’ve been waiting for about 7 years for that, so I’m not holding my breath. Every other drum VST on the planet for HUMAN drummers and “live capture” are Windows/Mac only.
This is why I think AVL Drumkit is so important to the Linux ecosystem. It’s the closest thing to THOSE offerings. Unfortunately, it’s unusable to about 80%-90% of human drummers, due to the 4-piece config. I WANT to use it, but cannot. I found a path through DrumGizmo and have been happy with the results. And DrumGizmo has several kits to choose from, to accommodate different drum configs. But the GUI is somewhat foreign, compared to all other drum VSTs I am familiar with.
I’m just trying to help the developers of AVL Drumkit to boost their base of users…probably significantly, IMO. Maybe they’ve already “scratched their itch” and don’t see any reason to address my comments. That’s fine…it’s THEIR project. But I’m disappointed that I can’t use an EXCELLENT linux-native offering. And I’m hoping that by telling them why, I’m telling them something simple that was overlooked, but comparatively easy to remedy. I’m not a “special-use” case, like a Neil Peart or Mike Portnoy with a 20-piece kit and uber-technical drum skills. I’m an average “joe schmoe” drummer with average skills, playing the most common 5-piece drum configuration on the planet. And I think I just described the overwhelming number of human drummers on this planet. And NONE of us can use AVL Drumkit because it’s at least 1 tom shy. That’s all I’m saying here.
Ugritone is still in business
However, in skilled hands the AVL drum kit can produce very high quality results.
Hi,
I know the kits are far from perfect, the Red Zep and Black Pearl samples were originally just done for my own use quite a few years ago now but at the time there were about 3 other decent drum sound choices in Linuxdom so I shared them ‘until something better came along’ and Robin saw the potential to put them in a Plugin. The recent Blonde Bop and Buskman were much more organized with intention to be a ‘product’. So I am completely fine with people having opinions as to their quality or usefulness for certain genres but to be honest I find the notion that they are ‘completely unusable for most drummers’ because of the number of toms to be preposterous. They are all gigging and working 4pc kits in use for many years now and they have been recorded in at least 10 albums in our Studio and never has anyone recording or watching a show has commented on the layout of the kit, guest drummers who have sat in have never said “hey sorry man I’d like to jam with you but no second rack tom is a no for me”… 
I just sampled what was there in front of me and I’m not going to go back and add anything, the die is cast and they are what they are as far as the LV2 version. As mentioned the samples are all provided in the SFZ versions and you can mix and match whatever you like, I would imagine the LSP multisampler Plugins could be used if you don’t want to hand roll SFZ files or maybe Drumlabooh will add multi-out. Lately I’ve just done multitrack exports from Hydrogen as WAV and imported them into Ardour and Mixbus and I find this gives excellent results.
Anyway I’m not a proper ‘developer’ or a company and managing AV Linux on it’s own is too much most of the time so with the AVL kits unfortunately you get what you paid for… 
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Appreciate the reply @GMaq
To be clear, I don’t mean to come across as criticizing anything that was done with AVL. I think what was done is fantastic, and I LOVE the kit sounds. I’m just bummed I can’t use them. When “live tracking” with a human drummer, I’ve got “holes” in fills and frills where those 2nd rack toms are hit, and never could figure out how to address that…short of removing a tom from my kit.
I find it difficult to believe you have only worked with 4-piece drummers…they certainly exist…but 5-piece drummers are WAY more common. If you have worked with 5-piece drummers, how did you solve the problem I describe? Serious question…maybe I’m missing something obvious because I have tunnel vision? I believed maybe I was suggesting a modification that would dramatically increase the user base, or perhaps something to consider the next time a new kit is created.
In any event, if the “die is cast”, it is what it is, and I’ll move on. I think AVL Drumkit is fantastic. I only wish I could use it without “losing hits” or modifying my drumkit to make it smaller. KUDOS on the plugin though, as it absolutely fills a glaring need in the linux ecosystem!
In my opinion a 2 tom kit is miles better than a 3 tom kit and if you disagree then your opinion is wrong because my opinion is right.
Jest aside, some excellent sampled kits only have 2 toms, like the first two AVL kits and the Yamaha kit by DrumDrops for example. The first kit I started playing had only 2 toms and 1 cymbal so no big deal but I can imagine it’d be frustrating for drummers used to the full monty.
If you need more “more than 2 tom” drum options than Ugritone and Drumgizmo on Linux then you could also try something like Spreedrum + acoustic samples loaded in and mapped yourself…? I did that for a while before finding Ugritone. It works well with kit samples from places like DrumDrops for example and has groovy features like velocity layers, humanisation, pitch control, ADSR envelopes, etc etc.
My only perspective from the point of view of a human “drummer” (beginner) is, yes a 3rd tom would be nice, but I have other issues with my setup that have, thus far, stopped me using AVL Drumkits.
The issue I have is getting a satisfactory mapping between my cheap eKit (Roland TD-1K) and the AVL drums. I’m using the bundled AVL Dumkit MIDI Map. The problem is what the TD-1K offers as MIDI triggers don’t quite match with what AVL drumkits have; it’s close but I spent too much time trying to get something that works for me.
I ended up switching to DrumGizmo and using a custom drumkit file and MIDI map, and even that has some shortcomings.
I’m not expecting Glen to change this because:
It is what it is, and there are other options, and I’m grateful that AVL exists and I may still be able to use it for cases where I want to program drums.
I’m also grateful for the other suggestions; I may give Ugritone a try too.
I disagree: they are worth a LOT more than I paid for them!
Cheers,
Keith
It seems like that could be easily remidied (scnr) with midimap.lv2. if you need help with the configuration file, feel free to ask.
Thanks, but I’m not sure what midimap.lv2 would give me over AVL Dumkit MIDI Map (shown below in case you aren’t familiar with it):
It’s not really a mapping issue, it’s a mismatch between available MIDI triggers and available (and desired) sounds.
Cheers,
Keith
midimap.lv2 would allow you to not only map notes to different ones, but also map control changes or even alter events. e.g. control changes to notes or aftertouch a to control change etc.
What do you exactly mean by that?
P.S. Moderators: maybe it would be prudent to move this discussion about ways of using AVL drumkits in to a separate thread?
What I mean is, the TD-1K has the following triggers for hi-hat:
- Hi-hat open (bow)
- Hi-hat open (edge)
- Hi-hat closed (bow)
- Hi-hat closed (edge)
- Hi-hat foot closed
AVL has the following:
- Closed Hi-hat
- Semi-open Hi-hat
- Swish Hi-hat
- Pedal Hi-hat
From a “human drummer” point of view, I don’t see that “Swish Hi-hat” is useful to me, as I can largely achieve what I want using the pedal. But I really do like to use the bow and edge of the hi-hat to give different sounds. The TD-1K has separate triggers for those, but AVL doesn’t have different sounds I can use with those triggers.
Similarly the AVL kit only has one sound for crash cymbals plus a choked version, whilst the TD-1K will output separate notes for bow and edge. Yes, I could map it to a different sound, but it’s not the same. This one bothers me less because I don’t use the bow vs edge as much as I do on the hi-hat.
I will note that the TD-1K also pushes out PolyPressure on the hi-hat pedal, as well as on choking the crash and ride cymbals. This could be used, I guess, to modify the hi-hat or cymbal sound, but I’m personally not bothered with that, and choking the cymbals issues a note-off which has the desired effect with my unsophisticated drumming.
I will emphasise that I’m not intending this as a criticism of AVL. I’m just saying it doesn’t work for me when I’m wanting something to trigger from my eKit.
I actually get the impression that AVL and, perhaps many other drum instruments (on all platforms) are primarily designed with programming/sequencing in mind, and not with providing triggered sounds for live drums, and that’s fine.
For info, this is my Drumgizmo MIDI Map that I’ve used with DRS Kit:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<midimap>
<map note="36" instr="Kdrum_with_contact"/>
<map note="38" instr="Snare"/>
<map note="40" instr="Snare_rim"/>
<map note="48" instr="Tom1"/>
<map note="45" instr="Tom2"/>
<map note="43" instr="Tom3"/>
<map note="46" instr="Hihat_open_tip"/>
<map note="26" instr="Hihat_open"/>
<map note="42" instr="Hihat_closed"/>
<map note="22" instr="Hihat_closed_shank"/>
<map note="44" instr="Hihat_foot"/>
<map note="49" instr="Crash_left_tip"/>
<map note="55" instr="Crash_left_shank"/>
<map note="57" instr="Crash_right_tip"/>
<map note="52" instr="Crash_right_shank"/>
<map note="51" instr="Ride_tip"/>
<map note="59" instr="Ride_shank"/>
</midimap>
Cheers,
Keith
Hi,
TBH I gave almost no thought to using the kits with e-drums… 
When I program drums it’s 100% mouse clicking and I proceeded from that mindset so yes the layout doesn’t take the various control parameters of e-drums into account… 
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Drumlabooh has multi-out. Peter forgot to add it in the latest 8.0.2 release initially but quickly fixed it. Also VST3 is not working in that release due reportedly to JUCE issues but LV2 works fine.
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