I had written an article here about using MP3 files with Ardour. Our Linux users often ask why they can't import MP3 files. The article explained the licensing issues that make that tricky, and then went on to explain why using MP3 (or other lossy compression format) files as source material in a project is a bad idea. I am still very strongly convinced that it continues to be a bad idea, but it seems counter-productive to have that debate in this context. I have left everyone's comments in place for those who want to read them.
@vervelover: The issue regarding VST is not about patents (as far as I know) - instead its about compatibility with GPL which essentially resolves to this:
Steinberg have chosen to make the VST SDK available for free (e.g. no cost) provided that you sign up to their license agreement. The license agreement does not allow re-distribution of the SDK
Therefore, if you make a GPL application, you cannot include the SDK in the source code (which would be necessary to successfully build it from source), as to do so would imply it could be freely (as in freedom) distributed which is counter to the VST SDK license terms.
There is no problem with distributing binaries (if they are not GPL) as this doesn’t involve distributing the actual SDK (header files)
The only problem with distributing binaries arises if they are built from GPL code, in which case the GPL insists that the source code be made available (and that makes it incompatible with the SDK license terms - as previously mentioned)
The way around this is to provide compatible header files under the GPL - which have been created without reference to the VST SDK and are therefore not covered by the genuine SDK license terms. This is what the Vestige headers provide.
However - mp3 is about patents e.g.
Even if a compatible ‘mp3’ codec was to be engineered without reference to any existing documentation - it would still be an infringement of the patents granted on the mp3 format.
- That’s my understanding of it anyway - although I’m certainly not an expert in legal matters
This is correct and good.
Programs should educate people, like a teacher.
@paul: wouldn’t it be better to attack the problem exclusively at the output side? No mp3s in + lossy format out = severe limits on source material and passing problem on to the next generation (i.e., vicious cycle). But mp3s in + lossless format out = no limits on source material and no problems for next generation IF no one else outputs using lossy format (i.e., virtuous cycle).
btw-- I have the “remix” culture in mind, which does start to blur the line between professional projects and consumer ones.
Why don’t you do it like DigiKam does it for pictures? Great big warning window popping up when you save something to a lossy format. Could be the same in Ardour: When importing lossy format audio, big warning. Exporting to MP3 and OGG/Vorbis would be a nice service, though. Much more useful than importing MP3.
But in both cases, lame and mpg123 allow you to do the evil thing anyways. Just one step more away. Which is not to say that anybody should do it. Consider using FLAC if you need to shrink audio data.
Hi Paul,
Wouldn’t the recompression problem you cite as the main reason to avoid mp3 source material apply to all lossy formats?
@jancsika: yes, the same problem exists for AAC, Vorbis and all other lossy compression formats. We support Vorbis mostly as a side-effect of support for it existing in libsndfile, which does all our audio I/O on Linux.
This makes me realize that the article is not entirely accurate, because on OS X, Ardour does handle MP3 files - also a side effect of support for it being present in Apple’s CoreAudio libraries. I’ll need to correct that.
@LeatusPenguin: There seem to be a lot of things in the audio world which people don’t understand, or perhaps more likely are incorrectly informed about. This is often exploited to a greater or lesser extent by “snake-oil” marketing techniques, which unfortunately makes it more difficult to sell a product which genuinely does have some innovative new technology… (e.g. If adding a gold plated AC power cable, or ‘directional’ speaker wiring really does improve the sound of an amplifier, then its a very badly designed amp…)
As someone who appreciates high quality audio, I’ve always regretted that mp3 has now become the accepted ‘standard’ for audio distribution (I’ve also heard of people trying to use mp3 files as impulse responses for convolution reverbs etc, which is just… wrong)
I’m hoping that lossy / compressed formats will eventually just go away as storage capacity and bandwidth get greater, but I’m not optimistic…
begins with the usual excuses for the online translation.
said this:
is a complicated issue, but the main thing is how it is used the mp3 file, if you take an mp3 file and re-exports to mp3 without working it’ll definitely problems, but if you take an mp3 file, it works in the mix and I go back there add another to reconstruct music from a capione here is that the situation changes completmente.
inanzi all because the sample we will probably put a set of plugins designed to improve the sound, not its full dynamic range of course, but there are a number of machines dedicated to the psycho who would do their dirty work in the most appropriate compression of signal format, or expansion eq and reverb more as soon as dilay inserting the mp3 file in the musical context here is the quality of quell’mp3 entirely different. then maybe a guitar or other instruments recorded the quality of that sample is improved by signal components of the material recorded live.
more in the studio I work a lot with hip hop and I often get people with the bases loaded from the web in mp3, and just as frequently downloaded from youtube, what am I supposed to do, say, no I do not agree to work hard because I want your just beat in wave? would be counterproductive for me too because I would lose customers.
in more than one would like to point out that thè already the 16-bit format waw loses signal quality, as percepaimo up to twenty-four bits of dynamic range, is that the vinyl record has a dynamic range similar to that mp3. However, the vinyl record is universally accepted by all and if you use the sample from vinyl you’re considered an expert, if you use the hand mp3’re considered a rookie …
the ideal thing to do and maybe you do import in mp3 format, but the bounce do so only as a wave formats suitable for 16-bit discs
I think the cause is good and lossy input should be avoided but it would be handy to drop something lossy at a track to use as template or model for a project. The lossy audio track would be ditched later on before exporting the real content.
I tend to think that lossy formats could be a good thing if one knows the limitations.
I only use flac for my own ripped music and compressed projects but I would use the lossy import for temporary tracks during the process if that would be possible.
I can live with no mp3 for the cause of education others
great article Paul!
this is one of the things people always get wrong…
I start to save my audio in .flac , also because i can put tags to find it again, especially filmsound stuff like foleys , ambients and so on. but i m also worried if .flac is future proof and how to convert it the best way. there s audacity and soundconverter if i want to convert outside of ardour (usually i export .wav…) some advice for archiving? maybe that s not the place to ask specific questions for archiving and i should start a new thread…
I think it’s a useful thing to import them but after running a daw own the copyright in the format conversion (wave or the one used by daw) so you are able to work on a track of an uncompressed format, but being able to use compressed formats
begins with the usual excuses for the online translation.
said this:
is a complicated issue, but the main thing is how it is used the mp3 file, if you take an mp3 file and re-exports to mp3 without working it’ll definitely problems, but if you take an mp3 file, it works in the mix and I go back there add another to reconstruct music from a capione here is that the situation changes completmente.
inanzi all because the sample we will probably put a set of plugins designed to improve the sound, not its full dynamic range of course, but there are a number of machines dedicated to the psycho who would do their dirty work in the most appropriate compression of signal format, or expansion eq and reverb more as soon as dilay inserting the mp3 file in the musical context here is the quality of quell’mp3 entirely different. then maybe a guitar or other instruments recorded the quality of that sample is improved by signal components of the material recorded live.
more in the studio I work a lot with hip hop and I often get people with the bases loaded from the web in mp3, and just as frequently downloaded from youtube, what am I supposed to do, say, no I do not agree to work hard because I want your just beat in wave? would be counterproductive for me too because I would lose customers.
in more than one would like to point out that thè already the 16-bit format waw loses signal quality, as percepaimo up to twenty-four bits of dynamic range, is that the vinyl record has a dynamic range similar to that mp3. However, the vinyl record is universally accepted by all and if you use the sample from vinyl you’re considered an expert, if you use the hand mp3’re considered a rookie …
the ideal thing to do and maybe you do import in mp3 format, but the bounce do so only as a wave formats suitable for 16-bit discs
Wow, flashback!
@Paul: do you remember this? https://ardour.org/node/777 , time flies…
I don’t want to sound harsh but i feel there is some personal bias here, and maybe also a bit of apologism for the fact that libsndfile does not support mp3. Also the argument about lossiness is a bit week as Ardour now supports other lossy formats.
Personally I agree that it is unwise to use lossy formats, but often software is used in other ways than what the developer intended.
OSS have a great tradition of mixing politics and personal opinions with software. End users are usually very pragmatic, and find this really unappealing. But kudos for having the balls to try to do something to educate the public, most commercial sw providers don’t feel that they can afford that.
@LeatusPenguin: I am really amazed over what people will accept. I caught my son listening to songs on youtube and felt I had been a bad parent
@froh: would it be clearer if i retitled it “Why you should not even think about using lossy compression formats as source material when working with Ardour (even if you can) ?” …