Dante Protocol Networked Audio

Installation & Configuration Linux
#52

@tatrapikao You are probably right! I always though all RME USB *face products had a class compliant mode, but very like the DigiFace doesn’t have it! :frowning:

I recently entered the Dante inferno again, mostly on the basis of Yamaha stuff and DVS and doing some research I found a (new?) interesting interface/product by Yamaha – but yet again it doesn’t say anything about class compliant mode: R Series (USB) - Übersicht - Interfaces - Professional Audio - Produkte - Yamaha - Deutschland

They seem to want to pick up the fight with WAVES who are leading with their Waves servers in terms of using plugins in live audio environments with this product, using Dante and VST.

More infernal details include that the 2x2 Dante adapters apparently also only allow for 2x2 connections to be routed in Dante Controller, simply because they all use the same chip by Audinate that doesn’t allow for more.

I recently found this project: GitHub - philhartung/aes67-sender: Make a soundcard input available in an AES67 network – it basically seems to be a replacement for Dante Via, which is a very interesting product to my opinion. E.g. it allows me to feed my RME FireFace 400 into a Dante network on OS X (however, at a fixed Dante latency of 10msec or so). This project on github might allow me to do the same on some embedded something. I haven’t tried yet. Since it supports Jack, one could do all kinds of tricks with it.

All Dante products I have do support AES67, except for Dante Via and DVS.

#53

Almost two years later… got a RME Digiface Dante here now. It doesn’t do anything on Linux. Says hello in dmesg, but that’s it.

The older PCI-e Dante cards are out of production as it seems. It might be that all of those re-branded ones would work with the commercial LX-Dante driver, I don’t know.

So the only usable Dante hardware interface to my knowledge at the moment is the Yamaha RUio16-D that is USB audio class-compliant. However, this is info I read on the web, I haven’t tried one of these yet. Too expensive for 16x16 channels. Yes, the offer includes some goodies such as a VST version of the REV-X reverb by Yamaha, which I actually love a lot, but these plugins then again are not provided for Linux.

Dante Virtual Soundcard is still not available for Linux. Even though apparently Dante libraries for Linux by Audinate exist for embedded systems / OEM products.

I tried Merging Ravennas Virtual Audio Device on OS X, which also exists for Linux. It uses AES67 and communicates with Dante hardware in AES67 mode. This actually does work, but it has two issues: 1) it cannot be run reliably at very low latency, which however might be irrelevant to many users, and 2) it requires expensive AV networking switches since AES67 is multicast-only. This may blow up the costs of your infrastructure quite a bit, depending on the plans for the setup.

So far, I’m now using the Digiface Dante on OS X and Dante Virtual Soundcard on Windows for playbacks etc. – on Linux I’m stuck with the incredibly expensive Dante AVIO USB, which is 2x2 channels only. It works well, though.

Basically, my conclusion is at the time of writing: Dante on Linux Desktop – manufacturers don’t want it to happen.

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#54

Pretty certain this requires a driver/not class compliant for full support. It is on my list of hardware to purchase but I probably won’t be able to for another year or two depending on how much people rent my gear.

Of course I could try out a DM3-D and see how that handles it now on v2, haven’t tried that yet.

From: AES67-FAQ | Media Networking Alliance

Are you possibly thinking of AVB which requires specific hardware support in the switch?

  Seablade
#55

Even ignoring that unicast is an option, I bought a simple managed switch which supports multi-cast for just over $25 last year. Multicast support is basically free these days.

#56

Well, I couldn’t get Merging Virtual Audio Device to interact without creating multicast AES67 flows on my Dante hardware. So while possibly AES67 in general does support Unicast, things might be different when using Dante chipsets in AES67 mode. (Dante hardware: SQ Dante 64×64 by Allen&Heath.)

I tried a low-latency setup below 4msec using Merging Virtual Audio Device on OS X and that actually worked, but OS X wouldn’t cooperate too well. Plus, it’s really a hassle because e.g. the new Mac Mini M2 10gbps ethernet chip does not work with AES67 apparently… and so on. In the end I gave up on AES67 and went for the Digiface Dante.

Managed Unicast switch for $25? Please send a link. I tried a couple of, found the Cisco sg350/sg250 working after some configuration. Older DLink DGS1210 do not work, they don’t allow for patching in Dante Controller, the later ones might work – so one of these older ones was what I could get for cheap.

I found out that when I plugged some cheap non-managed switch into the network at some arbitrary point, even when it wasn’t doing any audio over IP, the entire low-latency AES67 thing would break down on the spot for me. So it was quite risky for a mobile setup (at home, I’m on ADAT still, this is all about live setups).

#57

You are correct that Dante devices only support multicast currently. Both multicast and unicast are described in the AES67 spec, but unicast is not required.

I would call it semi-managed, it is not completely configurable.
TP-Link SG108E
Currently $27 at Amazon.

You definitely want a switch which lets you configure priority queues.

#58

Thanks for hinting me to the TP-Link series. I wasn’t aware of those. So far I have been using inexpensive non-managed Netgear PoE switches that can some things very well, e.g. they power my streaming cameras and camera controllers, or even power Allen&Heath’s ME-1 personal monitor mixing series that uses their proprietary DSnake protocol. However, they wouldn’t to Dante Multicast properly. (Hint: never ever mix DSnake and other traffic on one switch, will not work, was never supposed to work.)

Basically, I think one can summarize it this way: In Unicast mode, the switch gets to know from the Dante/AES67 hosts to which hardware ports data packages must go (since the switch gets to route using MAC addresses and it maintains a simple list of these for each of its ports). In Mulicast mode, the switch must decide this alone on the more sophisticated TCP level using IGMP Querying and IGMP Snooping, while QoS keeps the PTP clock for audio samples going everywhere on time.

Now in combination with the right “skill set” for Dante/AES67 and PoE requirements, there are only a few inexpensive models left that works and those aren’t that easy to find.

Yamaha offers specialized Dante switches, and Luminex go even further claiming they support everything Audio/Video out of the box without any special configuration, all using EtherCon connectors for stage equipment. I see those often, but for me as a one man business, they’re way out of reach. But if money isn’t of any concern, go for those.

As long as everything is Dante and Unicast, it’s quite easy, though.

Fun fact is that on OS X I use mostly the very same software that I use on Linux as well, which is mostly Mixbus or Ardour, VLC, and the like.

Plus WAVES Superrack Performer. Which is another crazy story, since the WAVES server is free and Linux-based, but there’s no WAVES plugins available for Linux running outside of their server ecosystem. (A small DIY WAVES server can be created for below 300€, but it will only talk Waves Soundgrid, and the Dante/Soundgrid bridge is at around 3200€ at the moment… so if you can fit a WAVES card to your console, this is the cheapest option… but for Yamaha QL consoles there’s only a 16x16 model, so the details instantly make you go nuts either way you go.)

Oh, I just went on Digigrams website, so the guys with the LX-Dante card. They have a new product now called ALP-DANTE that is supposed to work with Linux: ALP-DANTE PCIe SOUND CARD - Smart and ultra versatile - Digigram – available for less than the Yamaha USB thing, but I don’t know about licenses and/or extra costs for the ASLA driver.

The RME Digiface Dante features a 64x64 Dante to MADI converter/interface, which I actually might use, and if it had a Linux driver, I would strongly advertise the product here. But it hasn’t and RME stated they won’t make one: Digiface Dante + Linux? (Page 1) — Linux — RME User Forum

So, have we tried thoughts and prayers yet…? especially in high-channel-count situations, Dante is getting stronger. Even RME, traditionally on the MADI track, are going Dante now for preamps/converters such as the 12Mic-D. So a Dante Virtual Soundcard for Linux would be of great use for professional recording situations with Ardour/Mixbus on Linux.

#59

same for audinate:

#60

DSnake isn’t really meant to go over a switch at all, it is a layer 2 point to point connection IIRC. Doesn’t mean it can’t go over a switch, but IIRC you need to put it on it’s own VLAN where only the two devices are connected to it. But that is getting into more advanced things.

To be clear, Dante happens over just about every switch in my experience(Other than EEE switches, power savings and accurate timing don’t go well together). I haven’t dealt often with AES67 as much to speak specifically for that though.

Yamaha’s Dante switches are pretty much bog standard switches that are configured to not prevent Dante:). The nicety with them is they make VLANs easy, etc.

Luminex switches are a bit more powerful, and IIRC they are AVB capable, which requires hardware support but in the end they are still just switches.

Similar story here. I haven’t been a full time Linux user in some time sadly, primarily due to plugins, QLab, and video editing. (Well Dante as well and configuration software for hardware such as R1, etc.) But the basic software I use still works fine on Linux outside of that.

Waves has made interesting moves recently that make me think they may be starting to move away from Soundgrid honestly. The 16x16 aspect of the Soundgrid card though is more about the mini-YGDAI card slot which is 16x16 and less about the card.

To be fair some time ago people actually were able to listen in on the Dante streams on Linux, but I don’t remember specifics on that at the moment, this was years ago. The real trick is managing the subscriptions etc.

I have considered investigating an API license to write software plugins for Dante so that you could load a plugin on a track in Ardour and it would show up in Dante, but you would still need to run Dante Controller to manage subscriptions most likely, and would have to charge for the plugin due to licensing.

Seablade

#61

Dante Controller is a Java Application, however if I have peeked into the JARs accurately, it’s using binary libraries internally. I always have VirtualBox ready for Dante Controller, Blackmagic Atem Control, Allen&Heath SQ Mixpad… sad story. Especially sad with those tools that are merely network-based GUIs that really don’t have any special requirements… SQ Mixpad is even based on QT.

For a start, someone could code a driver for the RME Digiface Dante, but me and myself I’m far away from being able to do this.

Luckily, I can still be 100% Linux when doing office work, mixing down recodings, editing videos (Lightworks… oh well), editing photos etc.

#62

Apparently this is working on Linux. If you want to use Dante. But they are not cheap.

https://www.marian.de/products-archive/clara-e/?lang=en

#63

I don’t know if it is the good thread, but pipewire seem AES67 enabled.
I need a dante compatible daw for multitrack recording on the road : Yamaha CL5/QL5 is everywhere…
So, i need to find a little AES67 hardware to try this without buy a 500+€ card for my m32 ! Do you know a little tool for that ?

#64

Late answer, and not a satisfying one: If you want to do recordings from Yamaha CL/QL or Soundcraft Vi via Dante, get yourself a laptop capable of running OSX and Dante Virtual Soundcard (DVS).

DVS does not run too solidly on Windows, but if you dare, you can try some used Windows 10 laptop – it’s the least expensive option.

As a DAW, you can use Ardour. Or, if you want it easy just use Harrison LiveTrax. (If your client runs a 12k€ Yamaha QL1 and you cannot afford 15€ license for LiveTrax in order to do a recording, something is wrong with your business structure).

On Apple hardware, things become more complicated – Apple fans are telling the opposite, but they just don’t do proper work apparently. So on Intel Macs, the Belkin USB 4 to RJ-45 2,5mbps Adapter is said to work best. However, on Apple Silicon, the USB network implementation is said to be insufficient, so you’d rather want to use the Thunderbolt network adapter by Sonnet (very expensive).

Me and myself, I found out that when using higher latency settings, which is okay for multitrack live recording, the internal network adapter of the Mac Mini M1 will be fine.

AES67 would work with Linux apparently (see above post in Pipewire), but it has implications on the entire networking infrastructure since Audinate’s Dante chips can only do Multicast, and you do not want to do this, especially not with Yamaha QL/CL, where the communication with digital stage boxes is also run via Dante.

If you have a choice in mixing consoles, go for an Allen&Heath SQ-series console, which has an internal recorder that can do 32 channels at 48khz on any USB storage device fast enough (like these Samsung T7 SSDs).

Most audio engineers will not even touch Dante Controller. Too complex. Most nerds will find Dante very easy. So in order for Linux to succeed at AES67 and/or Dante, things need to become very straightforward.

#65

Sorry but I am going to have disagree with you on a LOT of things here.

This I DO agree with you on.

I would love to know why you say they don’t work properly? Considering I have been using dozens of macs running Dante for many years, and to be honest it tends to work out VERY well. Things get more complex in systems that have dozens of endpoints, but I am wagering a guess 90-95% of systems don’t fall into this, and if yours does you probably have an audio engineer to manage it. I have used both internal and USB adapters for Dante for the record without any difference, though to be honest I tend to avoid USB for Dante just because of non-locking connectors, and I don’t want them to fall out in the middle of a show.

Been running it myself on at least a half dozen (Honestly now that I think about it probably closer to a dozen) M-series macs for the past several years without issue using the internal NIC.

So I assume by this you meant in AES67 mode the chips only do Multicast? I haven’t looked lately to be able to comment on this, but there is nothing wrong with using Multicast either in my experience, and in more complex setups it is actually a benefit.

I wouldn’t pick digital consoles for live mixing based solely off that feature honestly personally. There are tons of reasons to pick one console over another, but if it doesn’t solve the primary purpose of mixing the show as well, it may not be the best option for you. I had a show I designed recently that had an SQ console in the theater, but we actualy replaced it with a GLD console (Older console less features) because it was better to mix on. I could then track the show over Dante if needed (Both of these consoles require an expansion card to use Dante for the record). The SQ series is popular in terms of bang for the buck, don’t get me wrong, but it isn’t the best to mix on in my experience.

Sorry this is flat out false. I say this as someone that has worked with hundreds of audio engineers over hundreds of shows in my venue[s]. Most audio engineers in live audio are VERY comfortable working with Dante, and in fact I am hiring a person right now that one of the requirements for the job description is Dante certification because it has become so ubiquitous.

If you think Dante is complex, I would hate to see you look at AVB honestly.

So it seems like you are saying Dante needs to become more straightforward, which I won’t say wouldn’t be a benefit, but it is far from what I would call complex right now. This is separate from Linux succeeding at Dante or AES67, which is entirely about software support really (Which ideally the manufacturer would support, but hasn’t done much so far).

Seablade
#66

What I’m trying to say is that when AES67 is not as simple to set up as Dante, people will not use it, no matter on which OS. However, the Linux community is unlikely to support Dante, folks will go for AES67, if at all.

What people consider complex or simple is a matter of circumstances and personal background. In my surroundings, audio engineers will give me a call when they have Dante as a topic. Not all of them, especially not the younger ones, but almost all of the older folks will. Yes, Dante chips will do AES67 only in multicast mode.

And yes, Dante/DVS will work with most gigabit USB network interfaces if you set latency to 11msec, and mobile Apple users don’t have any other options than external network interfaces. My claims about AES67 and special audio interfaces are more or less what Merging, manufacturers of Virtual Audio Device for AES67 and several hardware units, are saying about OS X: https://www.merging.com/uploads/assets/Installers/KHEPRI_X.0.5_HotFix4/January2023/VAD/RAVENNA-AES67%20Virtual%20Audio%20Device%20Guide.pdf

And yes, multicast does have benefits or might even become a requirement for large Dante networks. While multicast-capable switches have become cheap (see discussion above), not everybody has them. In fact, the abovementioned older audio guys often-times do not even know that multicast exists.

There is no perfect mixing console. There is a matter of taste in every brand. I personally find the Yamahas hard to use, Allen&Heath usually easy, and I use the SQ most often. I get along pretty well, both in corporate and in music events. It has things that are not ideal, like every console has. We don’t need to discuss the one and only mixing console. We also don’t need to discuss the one and only editor for programming, because Emacs is it. :rofl:

#67

Ahh understood, I misunderstood your point then, I was reading that as you were saying Dante was to complex for audio engineers.

That is actually not true. There are other options for Mac Users, for instance the newer PCI-E Dante cards located in an external enclosure via thunderbolt (Haven’t tested this, though the older cards worked) and of course things like the RUio16D from Yamaha. Both of these have the advantage of getting you redundant Dante Connections in fact. You also have options like the Yamaha DM3 which also gets you Dante IO. Though I will admit both the RUio16D and the DM3 are limited to 16 channels Dante IO IIRC.

Ok so I don’t use Ravenna’s software on this, so I would be curious for more information about what they are referring to. What I can say is it hasn’t been a problem thus far I have experienced when running Dante.

So this is part of what I do as a consultant, help people pick the best mixing console for them(And of course design the audio systems to fit their needs:). There are points I absolutely recommend people use A&H, but I think A&H have taken a step backwards in their UI of their newer consoles compared to their last gen honestly, meaning the physical layout of the controls and how you navigate the console, the software itself is a definite step up in terms of graphics etc. But they are decent consoles if you are mixing bands. I still have my iLive on the table behind me in fact because I loved that console’s approach though I was one of the only people that did.

Yammie’s can certainly be a learning curve to get into, you have to set up the user defined controls to really take advantage of them, but especially for talking heads, corporate etc. they are fantastic consoles, and their Rivage is the only thing looking at the world of theater in that price/performance range other than the Digico T-series consoles.

M32/X32 is still out there of course, though I constantly wonder when a true successor will hit for it, the lack of touchscreen is still a drawback on that console and it is getting very long in the tooth, though the amount of third party software available for it (Mixing Station, TheaterMix, etc.) means it is often a great choice IF paired with those other options these days. Like the SQ console, you can also track straight to a SD card on it for the record as the newer ones come with the upgraded USB expansion card that has a SD card slot for this purpose.

Yep I could go on for a bit obviously;)

I hear emacs has a great mixing console in it… all it needs is a decent text editor.

Seablade

^^ Former emacs org-mode junkie:)

#68

For my small setup, which is on a budget, I now use the RME DigiFace Dante. It seems to work very well on my MacMini M1. For my use case I need very low latency. Non-locking USB(-C) connector that is…

Just for live recording, Dante Virtual Soundcard can suffice. On OS X. I use it for Mixxx on Windows 10 via DVS and the latter regularly screws up the PCs audio system when the network cable is accidentally disconnected.

Linux Dante hardware options… we discussed those above already.

Now operating an Allen&Heath Zed10FX. Now this thing was really worth buying 10 years ago, it’s making money regularly. :rofl:

#69

Yep good point, that is other options as well:)

A&H’s small format analog offerings were always a step above others, particularly their mixwizard.

Yea cables getting disconnected is a definite issue and to be fair it can screw things up on most platforms, though technically DVS should still be running as a sound card even if disconnected from the network. But yeah that is why I like redundancy and ethercons obviously;)

   Seablade
#70

This topic was automatically closed 90 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.

#71

Just came back to post a link to a related thread to continue this in for a time: