A new modern look-and-feel for Ardour

Community Ideas for Ardour
#41

@ Paul Davis: Sarcasm is unnecessary. The point that many users were raising in this thread were valid and well intended. You went as far as to say that “by ignore [you] meant totally ignore” users concerns and input about having the freedom to modify Ardours default look. You also suggested that for every user who said they hated its looks someone else loved it. That is a being content and not an ambitious approach at all. The best vision for a project like Ardour is not for “some to like it and some to hate it”. In the customer service world, in the sales world, anywhere in the private sector an interviewee with those views would never be considered in a job interview. What would do justice to the effort put into Ardour by hard working developers is for it to to grow and that can only happen by aiming for a high rate of adoption. The latter would increase revenue and resources for the project to expand. Expansion is a good thing, more resources are a good thing, Do you want a remark more objective than that one? You were consistently and adamantly turning down the input of people who were very deferential to you and the project and you did so in a tactless fashion. You’ve got a paid subscriber to quit his paid subscription, you pissed me off too and I wanted to contribute and have just come accross reaper which I could make look like Cubase or an older version of Cubase if I wanted to and was researching for a similar feature in Ardour and that’s how I ended up in this thread . The community is strong enough for you to reopen this feature request and delegate to those interested in adding their contribution to it who are qualified rather than discarding their input from the get go. Give them the opportunity to participate. Making them aware of the challenges should not conflict with being tactful. Having an open mind is precisely what’s exciting about open source projects. I hate to admonish you but your “Martin Shkreli attitude” is what people would expect in a for profit closed source project with the difference than a for profit project would NEVER let a member of their customer support team to be so tactless towards a final user in a public forum without consequences.

Everyone has been polite and deferential to you in this thread and that’s clearly not yet helping you to make any perceivable attitude adjustments so someone had to tell you this but I wish it wasn’t me but a colleague or friend of yours who you trusted and was sincere enough to help you realize that these type of “contributions” and remarks are a step in the wrong direction for Ardour.

#42

Let’s revisit what I actually said when I talked about “ignoring” input:

I ignore comments about subjective opinions on Ardour’s appearance. And when I say “ignore”, I mean “ignore completely”. On the one hand, for every person who says “I don’t like it”, there is someone else who says “I love it”. And on the other hand, there’s the fact that subjective opinions (mine, yours or anyone else’s) are completely useless for making good software. That requires proper workflow analysis, careful documentation of user behaviour and more. If someone does that sort of thing for Ardour, I for one will be extremely interested and willing to pay attention. Same for specific, actionable suggestions. But comments of the form “I think it could be better” or even “Lots of people think it could be better” are a complete dead end.

If you actually read that, it doesn’t say that I will ignore everything anyone says on this topic. It says that I am not interested in subjective opinions about the look and feel of the program, and explains why. It also describes the kind of input that is incredibly valuable, and is welcome and will be listened to, but is rarely found.

You apparently have skipped over the parts in this thread and others here that discuss the same thing that explain why there are immense technological challenges to doing dramatic things with the GUI. 75% of the codebase is the GUI. Many of the most complex parts of the codebase are the GUI. The idea that we would just throw out or even migrate toolkits in order to satisfy people who don’t like the current appearance is not just absurd, but an insult to our thousands of users who would prefer us to work on actual features and bug fixes. We did a port many years ago from GTK+1 to GTK+2 and that ended up taking nearly 2 years, an experience echoed by every project I have ever come across that migrates toolkits. You seem to have skipped over the parts where I’ve explained that the entire code design of our GUI is the absolute opposite of “a designer could just drop in a new <XXX>” (as well as the technical reasons why this is a bad idea that I have not explained here).

Ardour is growing quite naturally without us spending 1-2 years to completely overhaul the GUI (and that’s optimistic). Could it grow faster? Perhaps.

Your analysis of “the best vision” is completely at odds with almost every DAW except Reaper (of course). Spend time in cross-tool forums, and you’ll find the usual mix of people that “cannot stand the interface of Foo” and “I just love the interface of Foo”. This isn’t my opinion, it’s the opinion of almost every DAW user that every lived. In addition, despite the success and coolness of Reaper, it is far from the most widely used DAW, and the most widely used ones do not share its themeability to any notable degree. That doesn’t mean that it’s a bad idea, but it does mean that it’s not compelling enough to overcome other aspects of a DAW for most potential users.

I’ve written elsewhere about how difficult it is to find developers for a project like this, open source or proprietary. There is even an entire forum thread in which I question whether our focus on being open source is actually beneficial to users (specifically by comparison with Reaper).

You showed up in this thread and insulted me, repeatedly directly and personally, after I have led this project for more than 20 years, a project that is widely admired and more or less unique in how we do things and what we have accomplished. Your user name is “just_here_to_say_hi”, but in reality, you just came here to be negative about me. I’m not even sure you understand my role in the project.

A more careful reading of this and other threads in the forums would have made my position and rationale entirely clear. Sadly, that appears not to have happened.

6 Likes
#43

Exactly my point. So much swimming to die at the shore.
Here, below are the comments that turn those 20 years of efforts and achievements into turning users away:
“You don’t stand a chance.”
“avoid language that attempts to sound objective” (that’s insulting)
“you are completely mistaken”
"I ignore comments about subjective opinions on Ardour’s appearance. And when I say “ignore”, I mean “ignore completely”.
“subjective opinions (mine, yours or anyone else’s) are completely useless for making good software” (You tell the user that his opinions are completely useless!)
And then there are all the comments where you sound totally adamant about not considering any input on Ardour’s interface.

Those who are grateful to you (and for good reason), who respect you and admire you will not tell you that you are being tactless. You even suggested that you didn’t mean to be rude in one reply (so you kinda sensed you were “possibly” being rude). You also wrote “It is true that I do tend to respond a bit too negatively to people who want to “improve the GUI”. And that’s a mistake.” (Good admission). Lastly you’ve got a subscriber who quit it’s subscription over the style of the replies on this thread. Then I also felt dissapointed with the perceived tone of your replies. You also wrote “Sorry if this seems harsh”, so it seems that you do gather that you might be being tactless.
Many will say nothing even if they feel how I felt, a very few might say something when it is too late (when they’ve already made the decision to go to a different DAW) and my nick was “just here to say THIS”, not sure how “this” turned into “hi”. So yes, I registered to say I was also offended. Is there a solution? You are dealing with the general public so you’ll encounter EVERYTHING good and bad.You can discard ANYTHING I say by just saying I’m a whiner, and say that you can’t make everybody happy but How much effort does it take to convey the same thoughts on those questionable comments in a non offending fashion? I, after re-reading all you’ve wrote, finally understand your frustration. What you’re describing seems like a monumental effort and those who mean to propose a solution to '“the problem” don’t realize this would be a huge undertaking for your team. It would be impressive if after my “contributions” to this thread you would take any suggestion from me but why not to tell people who want to contribute on the graphics end something like:
“Thank you, here’s the link to a thread were those who want to contribute on the looks and feel of Ardour exchange thoughts around the code” and then let the contributor/developer/graphic designer/s crash against the wall of constrains you’ve described here. Does it really take a lot of effort to say: “We’ve considered doing what you suggest in order to accomodate those users who like you would like to see some changes in the interface but since the challenges are x, y, z we have discarded it. If you are a developer there’s a developer’s thread that describe the challenges and you are welcome to contribute.” “Hey if we get enough pledges, it would cost this much [insert $ here] to pursue that.” So thatt doesn’t sound like you are brushing people off, sounds like you care about what they are telling you (even if you didn’t because looks are subjective) and then you delegate to those contributors to share the bad news of how difficult or impossible it might be to change the look of Ardour after those said contributors realize the constrains and difficulty of such endeavor. You can discard whatever I say but you are the image of those 20 years of effort, Why come accross as dismissive when you could avoid it? Your comments transpire frustration and I understand now why but telling someone that their opinions are subjective and also completely useless is INSULTING no matter how you convey it. It is totally counterproductive and unnecessary. How could you not expect at least someone to ignore your God like status here and tell you they’ve got pissed? I get it, maybe this is your personality and Ardour doesn’t have the budget for you to hire a PR person to assist you before making this type of comments but if you didn’t understand where the insults came from I hope this entry made it a bit more clear to you.

#44

I think it is time for a normal Ardour user to show some support for Paul.

It is evident that Paul makes very clear statements about his opinions, which maybe some sensitive people (artists?) don’t handle well. But I personally find those statements all (nearly all!) totally factual and clearly expressing a deep understanding and years and years of work on those topics. There was never any ranting from this side.

All users (I assume) are entitled and encouraged to express their opinions here (albeit, maybe preferably in a concise manner), but eventually some statements of the lead developer should, maybe, simply be accepted (even if one disagrees).

Personally, I enjoy reading the professional, technical comments of Paul. And, referring to a post a little further up, that one could also call him an artist, who created a unique piece. And all artists have their temper.

#45

Paul has ALL THE SUPPORT there is in the world because he’s deserved it over the years. I am moving away from Cubase, I have already moved away from Windows and Mac the best I can despite the fact that my hackintosh triple boots. Paul has all the deference (and more) he’ll ever need and that’s precisely the problem. No one is excempt from flaws and once in a while we can be our worse enemies. I provided clear examples of “better” or less offensive ways to say the same things I questioned. A user quit its subscription. Too much flattery and anyone starts letting themselves go unchecked because all you have is “yes man” around you. A better choice of words goes long ways in being likeable not just as a result of some amazing talent but as the result of being the best human being you could be. Sometimes there’s no one to tell you. I took the risk. I don’t need a retraction, even internal acknowledgement, just a bit of adjustment in how to communicate so you don’t hurt people sensitivities. Yes, artists, musicians. Those beings who thanks to being sensitive can tell nuance and understand that art is about form and tose who feel that form is not so much less important than function. Science is one thing, art is another and tact is not a dychotomy to any of both. Look, I took the trouble to register to say that I was pissed by the tone I perceived of what I’ve read and an user quit its subscription. I’ve never met the previous user. This is NOT about not supporting Paul. All of the opposite, this is about making sure he ponders alternative ways to convey whatever he might need to convey without making people feel like they are making subjective suggestions that are useless. (His choice of words). He might be a monster programmer and the world wouldn’t be as good if it wasn’t for him but all that can be acknowledged without having to put up with such a poor choice of words when addressing such a popular concern. Popular enough that Reaper spent quite a bit of resources in making itself skinable to make the transition easier for people. The interface is a great way to make people feel home but as much as I want to get rid of Windows and Mac dependency I want LADSPA and LV@ compatibility and Reaper doesn’t currently offers that. I’ve been playing with Ardour and I like it and believe I will be making a contribution and have a feature request that I’d pay extra to put it in the front burner. I’d pay an independent developer for the feature I need or Paul himself if I can afford it and it isn’t an aweful distraction from Ardour’s current roadmap.

#46

Have you considered opening a feature request for that? Reaper seems to rather fit your bill.

LV1 probably isn’t needed, most if not all LADSPA plugins have meanwhile been ported to LV2.
If I remember correctly Reaper’s objection to LV2 as that it doesn’t support sample-rate switching and changing rates requires to re-instantiate the plugin… Also now that LV2kit is nearing completion Justin may reconsider.

#47

Hear, hear! I agree wholeheartedly.

#48

/me waits for someone to call April Fools :partying_face:

1 Like
#49

No one is trying to change Paul’s opinions bud. Just helping him to craft them in a way that no one quits their subscription or feel offended over them. I mean, the more adoption of ardour, the more money/subscription/donations the better for Paul and for all of us. There’s already enough cometition out there and we are on top of that going to piss people off for asking a very popular request? That’s completely unnecessary really. So much support that you feel you can do no wrong and this is the outcome. A person fans are good for inspiration but a person’s critics help that person to improve (that of course only happens when the person’s intelligence > than the whatever ego factor that could be involved)

#50

I am still trying to determine in which direction to go. I’ll definitely ponder what you are suggesting

#51

@Just_here_to_say_thi You’re not going to get anywhere by attacking someone. If you want changes in the UI a better way to achieve what you want is to build a convincing case or better yet do some work on the UI in form of graphical demos, themes, etc.

There are so many opposing opinions about what the Ardour GUI should look like that it is impossible to make everyone happy. Someone must just make the hard choices and take the occasional flak for that.

Please note that you are getting emotional about things people said in a coversation 5 years ago, some things may have changed since then.

#52

I am not your bud.

I’m just an ordinary subscriber, one who usually sits on the sidelines and keeps quiet when this sort of crap happens, time after time after time. I’m not here to defend Paul, he doesn’t need defending as he’s done nothing wrong. But I would like to make my voice heard:

Paul: I don’t know how you put up with this nonsense and stay so polite. It’s appreciated that you concentrate on the important things for Ardour and don’t get distracted by piffle. Long may that continue.

@Just_here_to_say_thi To you I’ll say this. Your overbearing sense of entitlement is palpable. The fact that you registered merely to say how pissed off you are and how hurt your feelings are, because someone dares to approach things differently to you, speaks volumes.

Opinions are, by their very definition, subjective. Software, even that used to make art, is not itself art but just a tool and tools need to function, reliably and in an objectively good fashion, people’s opinions (and feelings) be damned.

#53

Thanks for the reply bud. I like Ardour, I like the Linux community, I have a great deal of appreciation for the talent and the dedication that Paul has put into this. I thought the communication strategy was poor and I made myself clear quoting the statements given to people who were sharing a genuine concern and an interest in contributing to Ardour. Those statements were very poorly crafted and certainly condescending. There are alternatives to that of which I’ve also provided examples. The idea is to bring more adoptions, not less, Don’t you think? When you own a product the least you want to know about why people might choose a competitor is Why. And you would try to do your best to fix that Why if you can. This is not about substance but about manners and tact. Anyone who ignores the substance of this concern is not doing Paul a favor. Blind support, automatic solidarity doesn’t help someone to do better next time. That’s my opinion of course

#54

Whatever. I agree, he needs to keep pissing people off. Good job to tell people that their suggestions are useless. I’m not telling you what I think of your “input” because it is already a waste of time. You can also bring that subscriber back in the meantime and donate everything he didn’t donate in the last 4 years because of your idol handling of a popular request

#55

I am not your bud.
I didn’t address you as such. I see there’s some issue with reading on your end so it’s ok.You clearly didn’t grasp the spirit of what my post was about.And you are correct I’m DEFINITELY not your bud.

#56

Haha, I remember people kept saying “FL Studio looks like a toy! Nobody will take it seriously!” for years and years and years, in fact all the way until now when it is one of the best selling DAW’s out there.

Ardour looks good, and it is indeed you being self centered if you think everyone who thinks it looks good is just being a “yes man” because of course your personal vision must be right and everyone else must therefore be wrong and just being nice to the developers.

Plenty of us have spent time here and on IRC giving the developers actual valuable feedback on how things can be better for Ardour, which absolutely against your premise of people being some sort of “yes men”.

1 Like
#57